Author Topic: Wizard Of OZ Pinball  (Read 65696 times)

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Offline Pop Bumper Pete

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #690 on: October 18, 2012, 03:42:13 AM »
Jason, they did have deadlines
the machine was supposed to start shipping in December last year, then April
each time it go close, they moved it forward two months

even now, we were supposed to have seen a fully working test game on location, but all we see is game at various expos with software that is nowhere near complete

And if the second title is 'the hobbit' I am not buying it

Offline Wotto

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #691 on: October 18, 2012, 02:17:54 PM »
Staying with the delays and lack of action part of the topic......

So .....when I ask JJ straight to his face at PPE 2011 as only he, I and one other person were sitting at a table having a coffee and I ask him "how concerned are you that after promising a date ( of March or April at that stage ) that if you DONT have the game by then, that this hobby will instantly start comparing you to Wayne Gillard and the infamous MM remake debacle".............I could see unhappiness in his eyes that I ( or it would seem anyone ) even dared to ask a question like this..........he looked me fair in the eyes and said "the difference between Gillard and us is that I will have our game out on time” ( end quote )

That was 3 promise dates ago.

And THATS why people get sceptical in a hobby that already has a history of promises , promises, promises..........having been spoken at like I was some type of fool for questioning him initially I personally I give zero leeway for the endless delays on this game. Overpromising and under-delivering is the most absolute dumbest thing ANY business person could ever do whether you are selling boiled lollies or cars or shoes or pinball machines.

My initial question to him WASNT to compare HIM to WG - but rather to seek his opinion on how he expected the hobby(ists) to react to him IF he failed to meet the deadlines HE WAS SETTING......he chose the answer that he gave me.

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Offline Caveoftreasures

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #692 on: October 18, 2012, 04:40:53 PM »
The pinball community doesnt mind if u are late, provided you give your customers constant feedback and valid reasons as to why/how/when etc.
JJP have been honest from day 1, havent told any fibs to my knowledge and have been focusing on getting things right before sending out a machine.

If JJP sent out a machine that wasnt finished, and the product ws given bad reviews, it would be alot worse than holding back, waiting for the machine to be right, then sending out.
Have they had some cancellations, Probably, will they get a few more cancellations betweeen now and December when the machines are still not finished, Probably, will JJP still have a loyal following with 80 percent of the people who have ordered a WOZ, Probably, and this will mean some solid pre-sales for their next pinball machine if the title is good.

Jersey Jack is responsible if the machine is late, the buck stops with him, but he can only give dates based on his pinball teams advice as to when things will be finished by etc. Some will be tolerant, others will not be and will wipe JJP for future purchasers because they are so late.
But this all keeps showing up one thing that no-one can escape, and that is the job Stern have been doing well for many years.

JJP have made Stern look smarter and more productive as a result of all this. It just goes to show, that 20 million bux, poaching/finding/recruiting the best pinball minds in the business guarrantees nothing at all, unless you can make it all work smoothly and quickly.
Alot of people said JJP would be bad for Stern, but I am of the mind JJP have been great for Stern and made alot of people realise Stern was doing a better job all along with their production cycles and ability to get multiple machines to the market quickly, without delays.
Gary Stern would be smiling and I think he deserves to.
WOZ will still be a great machine, but it will always be known as a very very late, over-run machine. Will it matter in 12 months ? Time will tell.
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Offline Pop Bumper Pete

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #693 on: October 18, 2012, 04:54:42 PM »
But Mr Stern does not ask for $$$ up front
Most WoZ buyer have been fully paid up since last year

Offline Olivia_jason

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #694 on: October 18, 2012, 05:15:52 PM »
But Mr Stern does not ask for $$$ up front
Most WoZ buyer have been fully paid up since last year

stern has capitol already, and i would believe most who bought the machine would understand that the money people are paying are helping fund the startup business, its a gamble but every one should certainly have understood that.
this would be the only part i would defend JJp on,

they really should have done a similar system to how the guys who are making "Zombie adventure land" have gone about working out dates.

 I having built motorhomes know how easy it is for contructing something new leaves dates out the window,
 you give dates and it always bites you in the arse, tooling failure or supply issues, you main worker gets sick, Whatever it always happens gaurenteed on a start up buisness, those things cvant be predicted. are out of your own control always popup when saying definitive dates. its a wrong move. it is so easy to go over a deadline in construction.
at the end of the day, he is NEW and i doubt understood what the construction side intails.
he might have been around for a while but has he built a factory of pinballs ?? no.
he fell for a common newbie mistake working out dates on best case senarios. it is his fault yes, but You have chosen to be part of something new, and of this process.

as for JJP being bad or good for stern, who knows they are both making the same sort of machines. movie based titles, with photoshop playfields. none of them making original games. thats JJP's problem more than anything else. prety much doing what stern are doing.
Maybe people would have been more forgiving if they weren't so similar to stern as far as what they are building, just with delays on their games.

The zombie adventure land game deserves more credit than JJP imo. and recon if you want to see some future innovation in pinball you should jump ship to that project over JJp and stern.


Offline pinsanity

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #695 on: October 18, 2012, 05:29:15 PM »
My guess is that JJ has now run into the same problem that WG in Aus faced - obtaining a viable short term semi-skilled workforce who can build and put together 1000 plus machines in a 6 month timeframe.

They both have the capital to get third parties to manufacture parts - what they don't have is the labour force to assemble said parts into a fully working machine on a mass production scale.

I think that is the reason we have not seen a complete version out in public yet. I am certain that software/gameplay wise it is ready to go but the minute a finished version shows up online, everyone will have JJ on a much stricter completion deadline (and at that stage there will be little other reason than "manufacturing problems".)

One of the reasons that IPB were able to get BBB out the door is that they had a lot of help on their assembly line from the pinball community in the US. That was how they beat the Europe ROHS deadline and got those machines finished.

Can you imagine either WG or JJ asking for help from their respective local pinball communities on an assembly line?

« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 05:36:05 PM by pinsanity »

Offline Olivia_jason

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #696 on: October 18, 2012, 05:38:52 PM »
My guess is that JJ has now run into the same problem that WG in Aus faced - obtaining a viable short term semi-skilled workforce who can build and put together 1000 plus machines in a 6 month timeframe.

They both have the capital to get third parties to manufacture parts - what they don't have is the labour force to assemble said parts into a fully working machine on a mass production scale.

I think that is the reason we have not seen a complete version out in public yet. I am certain that software/gameplay wise it is ready to go but the minute a finished version shows up online, everyone will have JJ on a much stricter completion deadline (and at that stage there will be little other reason than "manufacturing problems".)

One of the reasons that IPB were able to get BBB out the door is that they had a lot of free help on their assembly line from the pinball community in the US. That was how they beat the Europe ROHS deadline and got those machines finished.

Can you imagine either WG or JJ asking for help from their respective local pinball communities on an assembly line?



that is certainly a good point, and if you can survive failure, its a good learning curve, they are in uncharted waters i am sure. any buisness owner knows what it is like to be over your head and faced with the sink or swim scenario.

the success also does have allot to how the pinball communty will react to delays as to if he will get a chance to learn and improve. if people are impatient and not fair about it. then there will be another failed company for sure.
i do recon if people beleive JJP has something to offer the pinball world, then you would hope they dont get to carried away and demand heads to roll. you might miss out on something in the future. who knows

bashing the guy or putting big pressure on him doesnt help some one get out of a situation, some times the best way to get what you want done is to relax and let the guy sort to kinks out.

Im sympathetic for him on this, as i know what its like in buisness, having the best of intentions and getting snowed under. and it only takes one set of errors to make you look like a goose, you just need to give him time to redeem him self.
keep in mind, develop a new pinball,
create an entire factory with tooling to build them on large scale,
have to train and learn on the fly an entire work force, when you have never done it before
and keep the funding up would be a huge task, it would be a huge killer for an brand new fully indepentant company to undertake whilest keeping the investers aka you happy. it should relistically take a few titles before you get that 100% right
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 05:52:53 PM by Olivia_jason »

Offline GORGAR 1

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #697 on: October 18, 2012, 05:49:34 PM »
I wouldn't have the patience to wait this long! Waiting another month for Tron is killing me lol, the delay won't be good for JJP but great for Stern.

Peter


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Offline Freiherr

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #698 on: October 18, 2012, 06:36:26 PM »
I showed some of my non pinhead mates pics and videos of woz, they said if you are even remotely thinking of getting one of those expect a beating.
 :lol

sent from computer using the internet.
 :lol
+1 WOZ is definitely not showing up at the local pub. I would not be comfortable with paying up front and waiting so long. What if it all went belly up?
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Offline pinnies4me

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #699 on: October 18, 2012, 07:42:03 PM »


Off topic and insulting posts have been removed - play nice please guys!!  ^.^
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Offline Pop Bumper Pete

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #700 on: October 18, 2012, 07:59:17 PM »
Jason, it is not a new business
Jack has been dealing in pinball machines and parts for many years
http://www.pinballsales.com/shop/pc/home.asp

he also was in bussines building redemption games, so I would have thought half of what was need to build a game he would have already known
http://www.elautusa.com/news_1110.html
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 08:01:20 PM by Pop Bumper Pete »

Offline Retropin

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #701 on: October 18, 2012, 08:11:47 PM »
There are many reasons why JJP has delays.. none of which are available to the public.
Once machine is finally out which im lead to believe will be Dec time... (but dont expect 1200 machines to be shipped out in a week etc.. it aint possible)

Im sure it will all come out in the wash.. reasons for the delays will probably be made known.
You can judge the machine then.. not the man

Offline Pop Bumper Pete

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #702 on: October 18, 2012, 08:17:07 PM »
There are many reasons why JJP has delays.. none of which are available to the public.
Once machine is finally out which im lead to believe will be Dec time... (but dont expect 1200 machines to be shipped out in a week etc.. it aint possible)

Im sure it will all come out in the wash.. reasons for the delays will probably be made known.
You can judge the machine then.. not the man
Jack has one man writing the operting software for new pinball hardware, and the software for the WoZ game
Me thinks this should have started much sooner

Offline Wotto

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #703 on: October 18, 2012, 08:24:29 PM »
I agree with pbpete.

All we keep hearing is how clever JJ is, how loaded he is, and what an astute businessman he is.
What i keep seeing however is excuses and validation of his  fund raising requirements and basic business rookie errors.

If i was a multi millionare and wanted to do this, i would get a game done and
finished and then get it out there and sell the thing based on its merits. If you had the funds
and the belief in your product, then you should have zero hesitation in doing that.
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Offline Olivia_jason

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Re: Wizard Of OZ Pinball
« Reply #704 on: October 18, 2012, 10:07:45 PM »
I agree with pbpete.

All we keep hearing is how clever JJ is, how loaded he is, and what an astute businessman he is.
What i keep seeing however is excuses and validation of his  fund raising requirements and basic business rookie errors.

If i was a multi millionare and wanted to do this, i would get a game done and
finished and then get it out there and sell the thing based on its merits. If you had the funds
and the belief in your product, then you should have zero hesitation in doing that.


i some what agree with this in part, the machine should have been built and tested before actually starting to build the production line, and then at least the buyer can see what they are buying, i do think the build process has been key to peoples interest,
i still think even if the machine was finished the time of manufacturing might be later than now, at least he wouldnt be trying to build a machine and buisness at the same time, and starting to manufacture a machine whilest its not finished. that part certainly makes sense.

as for the buyers funding the operation with their preorders, well the buyers already or should have relized that is what they are essentially doing. he still could have done that once the machine was completed.