Coil Standards? what goes where???

[Marty Machine]

Hi all,

Thought i'd ask if all coils (flipper/bumper/slingshot etc) are all the SAME within the one machine?

I realise coil specs would be different between companies, but would they all be the same within the 1 brand? e.g. Could i pull a coil out of ANY williams pin and throw it into another williams pin without caution?
(same for Bally-to-Bally or Gottleib-to-Gottleib etc).


Also, assuming coils are unlabeled or label fell off, are there certain values of ohms that might indicate what the coil is used for? e.g. 20ohm=flipper, 40ohm=bumber etc.

Hopefully finding some standard info might help a lot of us clarify and burning coil problems when we buy semi-working machines (who knows if someone threw a bally coil into a williams before we got it?)

MM.

[Pinball Fixers]

Hi all,

Thought i'd ask if all coils (flipper/bumper/slingshot etc) are all the SAME within the one machine?

I realise coil specs would be different between companies, but would they all be the same within the 1 brand? e.g. Could i pull a coil out of ANY williams pin and throw it into another williams pin without caution?
(same for Bally-to-Bally or Gottleib-to-Gottleib etc).


Also, assuming coils are unlabeled or label fell off, are there certain values of ohms that might indicate what the coil is used for? e.g. 20ohm=flipper, 40ohm=bumber etc.

Hopefully finding some standard info might help a lot of us clarify and burning coil problems when we buy semi-working machines (who knows if someone threw a bally coil into a williams before we got it?)

MM.

Starting with your first question... the answer is NO. Coils vary throughout the machine, and vary between machines of the same manufacturer.

Coils use different wire gauges and amount of turns to make them stronger or weaker than others. Some also have 2 windings on the same coil former, which have different wire gauges and amounts of windings to each other. For example, a common coil is: 23-800. This means that the wire gauge is 23, and there are 800 windings (turns). While an old Bally flipper coil is 25-500 / 34-4500, meaning that the first coil is wire gauge 25, with 500 turns, and the second coil is wire gauge 34, with 4500 turns - all on the one coil former, which will have 3 lugs and not 2.

For info on the wire gauges, have a look at this on Wikipeia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge. The majority of pinball coils use the American wire gauge standard.


You can measure the resistance of any coil, but you will have to allow for a tolerance. ie: a 23-800 might measure 12ohms, while another 23-800 might measure 13.3ohms. (I have not measured any for this example). It is not a definitive indication of what an unknown coil may be, but would at least put you on the right track. Having said that, Gottlieb does list the resistance of their coils in their manuals.


Your best bet is to have a look in the manual for the machine to determine what coil is needed. You can use a Williams 23-800 in a Bally machine that calls for a 23-800 coil... you only need to make sure that the wire gauge and turns are the same.

HTH

[Marty Machine]

Thanx mate, good to know just the basics of the numbers and their meaning is a big help.

MM.

[pinball god]

Nice explaination Owen. Tell me what is the purpose of the plastic coil sleeve and its importance. I always hear you should put a new sleeve when rebuilding flippers for example. I know it a cheap thing but whay is it important to do so. What tell tale signs indicate a woen sleeve, week flipper, fuses blowing??

[Strangeways]

Nice explaination Owen. Tell me what is the purpose of the plastic coil sleeve and its importance. I always hear you should put a new sleeve when rebuilding flippers for example. I know it a cheap thing but whay is it important to do so. What tell tale signs indicate a woen sleeve, week flipper, fuses blowing??

Coil sleeves act as a "buffer" between the coil and the moving plunger. The wear that the plunger causes over time is on the coil sleeve, not the coil itself. A coil sleeve is a consumable item - like a rubber. Over time, the wear from the friction causes the plunger to become "Sloppy". Ops used to spray lubricant on the exposed plunger and then this would prevent the friction, and therefore the "sloppiness'.. Over time, the lubricant attracts dirt from inside the machine, which becomes a sticky deposit, which then causes the "sloppiness", until the plunger eventually seizes inside the coil sleeve.

Even after YEARS of the plunger not moving, you can simply clean the plunger with alcohol or nifti, and replace the coil sleeve, and the plunger is happy again !

It is a cheap way of having your machine running as best it can.. Every 10 years, just replace all your coil sleeves..

[Pinball Fixers]

Nice explaination Owen. Tell me what is the purpose of the plastic coil sleeve and its importance. I always hear you should put a new sleeve when rebuilding flippers for example. I know it a cheap thing but whay is it important to do so. What tell tale signs indicate a woen sleeve, week flipper, fuses blowing??

Coil sleeves act as a "buffer" between the coil and the moving plunger. The wear that the plunger causes over time is on the coil sleeve, not the coil itself. A coil sleeve is a consumable item - like a rubber. Over time, the wear from the friction causes the plunger to become "Sloppy". Ops used to spray lubricant on the exposed plunger and then this would prevent the friction, and therefore the "sloppiness'.. Over time, the lubricant attracts dirt from inside the machine, which becomes a sticky deposit, which then causes the "sloppiness", until the plunger eventually seizes inside the coil sleeve.

Even after YEARS of the plunger not moving, you can simply clean the plunger with alcohol or nifti, and replace the coil sleeve, and the plunger is happy again !

It is a cheap way of having your machine running as best it can.. Every 10 years, just replace all your coil sleeves..

Well put Nino, couldn't have said it better myself.

[Strangeways]

Nice explaination Owen. Tell me what is the purpose of the plastic coil sleeve and its importance. I always hear you should put a new sleeve when rebuilding flippers for example. I know it a cheap thing but whay is it important to do so. What tell tale signs indicate a woen sleeve, week flipper, fuses blowing??

Coil sleeves act as a "buffer" between the coil and the moving plunger. The wear that the plunger causes over time is on the coil sleeve, not the coil itself. A coil sleeve is a consumable item - like a rubber. Over time, the wear from the friction causes the plunger to become "Sloppy". Ops used to spray lubricant on the exposed plunger and then this would prevent the friction, and therefore the "sloppiness'.. Over time, the lubricant attracts dirt from inside the machine, which becomes a sticky deposit, which then causes the "sloppiness", until the plunger eventually seizes inside the coil sleeve.

Even after YEARS of the plunger not moving, you can simply clean the plunger with alcohol or nifti, and replace the coil sleeve, and the plunger is happy again !

It is a cheap way of having your machine running as best it can.. Every 10 years, just replace all your coil sleeves..

Well put Nino, couldn't have said it better myself.

Great minds think alike Owen !!

[Marty Machine]

Well said Nino, Ditto Owen   

10 years seems a long time for insert changes though????

I'm assuming heavily played machine would be sooner, and perhaps the purists would change sleeves almost annually to keep their pride'n'joy in peak condition???

Thoughts?
MM.

[Strangeways]

10 years in "home use only" pins is fair enough.

Some EMs I've bought over the years have the original copper or brass sleeves from the factory floor !

[Pinball Fixers]

Well said Nino, Ditto Owen   

10 years seems a long time for insert changes though????

I'm assuming heavily played machine would be sooner, and perhaps the purists would change sleeves almost annually to keep their pride'n'joy in peak condition???

Thoughts?
MM.

Really depends on the coil assembly... Flipper sleeves should be changed at least every flipper rebuild. But for Pop Bumpers and others, you may decide not to change them at all.

The sleeves do get dirty, and will hamper the plungers ability to freely move inside the coil, but for many assemblies it is not really noticeable.

It doesn't cost much to buy the sleeves, so if you decide you would like to do it, then by all means do so.

[ddstoys]

Your best bet is to have a look in the manual for the machine to determine what coil is needed. You can use a Williams 23-800 in a Bally machine that calls for a 23-800 coil... you only need to make sure that the wire gauge and turns are the same.

HTH

So does the 23 represent the wire gauge and the 800 how many times its wound?

[Jomac]

Hi all,

Thought i'd ask if all coils (flipper/bumper/slingshot etc) are all the SAME within the one machine?

I realise coil specs would be different between companies, but would they all be the same within the 1 brand? e.g. Could i pull a coil out of ANY williams pin and throw it into another williams pin without caution?
(same for Bally-to-Bally or Gottleib-to-Gottleib etc).


Also, assuming coils are unlabeled or label fell off, are there certain values of ohms that might indicate what the coil is used for? e.g. 20ohm=flipper, 40ohm=bumber etc.

Hopefully finding some standard info might help a lot of us clarify and burning coil problems when we buy semi-working machines (who knows if someone threw a bally coil into a williams before we got it?)

MM.

Marty ,

In addition the very informative replies already ,there are a few pointers that can help when exchanging coils between different brand machines

To Start with and this is only for the common coils used across all pinball's excluding flippers

Low First Digits EG: 23-800  , the 23 is used on 24 volt circuits  , 26-1200 is similar power but the 26 means it is a 48 / 50 volt circuit

A good way to remember is low first numbers = low voltage.

After you have handled quite a few coils you can tell just by looking at them basically what they are , remembering also that Thicker gauge wire is used for lower voltage coils. (23 gauge is thicker than 26 gauge.) so a 23-800 has thicker wire and is heavier than a 26-1200.
Both of these coils are pulse / short term power on coils , the coils with higher amount of windings are generally used where they are needed to stay energized for longer periods of time like ball diverters , gates, posts etc  , they also use less current so don't run as hot.
For example the old flipper coil mentioned 25-500 / 34-4500 the holding coil can pretty much stay energized all day as the resistance is quite high , while the power part of the coil 24-500 will read very low resistance and burn very quickly if left on.

For all the Gottlied coils there is a bally /stern / Williams coil that will replace it , all you need to know is the gauge , windings and approximate resistance.

As for coil sleeves , I have always found them to be a handy measure of whether the coil has been overheated or slightly burnt , If you can't remove the sleeve easily there is a good chance the coil has had a hard life , if you ever get a chance to unwind a coil that has a sleeve that wont come out you will usually find a couple of layers of burnt windings on the coil former., this coil will also be weaker than normal and often blow fuses., Unfortunately a lot these coils can look perfectly ok in appearance.


Not the same with EM's though , these mostly used Brass or Copper Sleeves that rarely ever wear out , which is lucky because some of these old coils can look completely burnt , impossible to remove sleeve and still work fine in an EM , If you were to put one of these in the same condition in a SS pin it would blow the solenoid driver almost instantly, so as a rule EM's are generally a lot more forgiving with out of tolerance coils.

[markc]

great reply Joey

I have a complete list of all coils too if needed


Joey will give you a call tomrorow

you get those parts i sent

mark

[Pinlinds]

Also a good idea to replace the diode when taking a coil from an old machine to use in another machine. EMs don't use diodes on coils but are a requirement for most SS pinballs (some cuircuits have diodes on the board) best to check the manual.
For EMs a SS coil e.g. a common 23-800 can be converted for use in the EM simply by cutting off the diode.
But remember if an SS coil requires a diode then you will cook components on circuit boards by not having a working diode in place! And often the damage will go further back than just the driver transistor!