Buyer's and Seller's Guide - Suggestion thread

[Strangeways]

We have been asked both privately and publicly if we can set a standard of rules and regulations in an effort to improve the buying and selling experience of pinballs sold through this site. This is simply a "think tank" of ideas that we will use to incorporate into a standard "For Sale" or "Wanted" post on Aussie Pinball. There have been a few good ideas submitted on threads, but I'd like them submitted here.

As a seller - a "For Sale" thread would have to include a checklist of items that have either been done, or not done.

Example

- Flipper Kits installed - Yes / No
- All rubbers replaced - Yes / No

As a Buyer - a "Pinball Wanted" thread would have to include a checklist of items that are expected to be completed

Example

Minimum Requirements ;

- Reproduction playfield must be installed - Not an overlay
- All Globes replaced
- All ramps must be new or repro

Minimum Requirements

- Non working machine
- Complete
- No playfield wear

etc etc..

Here's a suggestion from Blair in an earlier post on another thread ;

re-rubbered   Y/N
re-globed      Y/N
flipper kit       Y/N
playfield polished  Y/N  and type of polish  e.g. Novus 2
damaged ramp/s  Y/N  (with notation on type of damage)
mylared         Y/N        removed      Y/N


Feel free to add more suggestions.

[FirePower]

For sellers; who have you sold to on this site before, could be used as a reference check.

[Pintoxicated]

For sellers; who have you sold to on this site before, could be used as a reference check.

Good idea as well or maybe some type of feedback along the lines of eBay - both for seller and buyer.  Simple rating system to avoid a verbal assault or limit it to a certain number of characters, again along the lines of eBay, short sweet and factual.  Then if someone wants to contact the party involved, they can do so via PM and keep things private irrespective of whether any comments are for or against.

[Pop Bumper Pete]

You are also going to have problems with seller’s skills at restoration, board repairs, etc…

I could do my best at a restoration job, and advertise it as such, but my skills at not even close to Nino’s

[deadlydave]

All seems to be a bit complicated IMHO. I think its good that members can offer their pin for sale to other members before listing on epay. I reckon container pins are a great way to source an affordable project machine, not everyone is looking for a fully shopped pin (and the price it then demands). At the end of the day its up to the purchaser to actually look/test a machine before handing over the cash, otherwise take the risk. My 2 cents.........

[Pintoxicated]

The idea of a template is to jog people's memory as to what has or hasn't been done or what might be expected by buyers and give potential buyers a quick heads up as to the probable condition of the machine.  There is a public record in black and white of how the machine was portrayed and any major differences to that description may then be brought to the attention of others.

The forum is meant to be for everyone and not just commercial sellers, that was an issue raised in another thread that the forum is viewed by some as being too commercial.  Restricting for sale threads to commercial sellers only is not a good idea in my humble opinion.  At the end of the day, the forum should not be held accountable for any deals turning sour, the deal is done between individuals with the forum used as a tool to advertise the machine for the seller and/or buyer in the case of a wanted ad and is a great asset to the pinball community.

I don't see any problem with being listed as either a buyer or seller of a machine, I've got nothing to hide and if it assists with honest and factual information being shared amongst up then happy days.

There will always be something not working 100% right on a machine, whether it is broken or damaged or just out of adjustment I haven't bought one machine yet that hasn't needed something done somewhere.  We all know how many moving parts there are in these machines and I honestly don't expect every single thing to be stripped down and thoroughly checked, ask someone like Nino or Mark C how long that would take and how much added cost to a machine there would be because of that.  What the whole aim of this excercise is to minimise any gross errors or omissions from a description.
Whatever the outcome is, it's great to see an effort being made in response to member's concerns and everyone being given an opportunity to contribute.
 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

My way, everyone still gets to advertise a machine sale, its just done slightly differently to how it has been., People need to know there is a difference to a professional mseller with professional techs and amateurs with volunteer staff. The results may be different.
Who wants the forum to be the place that unhappy customers voice their concerns ? and it all goes pear shaped when there are differences. I am thinking of the forum, not the seller or the buyer, but for the forum.

it is OK
Nino is just getting peoples opinions
I am sure he will look at all these posts later, consult with Creech and come up with a plan


hows about you can sell 4 pins per year without being a paid up commercial seller?

[Pintoxicated]

Brett, do I understand correctly that with your idea I wouldn't be able to advertise a machine for sale on the forum but I would have to go to the expense of listing it for sale on eBay and then post the eBay link on AP? 

All that will do is raise to cost of machines, I'd be asking for more money to cover the eBay fees which then introduces alot more people to the machine as opposed to us trying to look after each other and keep our machines 'in the family' so to speak at reasonable prices.

The forum is simply a medium for us to communicate with each other and cannot be held accountable for deals turning sour.  If I sell a machine to you after I advertised it here on AP and the deal turned sour, my issue would be with you and not AP.

[MartyJ]

I will add my 

I've sold a couple of pins via Aussie Pinball and via Aussie Arcade.

I have generally listed mine as local pickup only.  I understand this makes it difficult for the interstate guys, but transport can (as we all know) cause problems.

I will detail all new parts purchased and work undertaken.  I find this easier rather than listing everything I have not done.  Leaves out any doubt / assumptions.

I will list as many photos of I can.  If there is obvious wear I'll list it and photograph it.

Communication.  I encourage questions.  If you have a question, concern or specifically want to know if something has been fixed or want another photograph, close up etc.  ASK.

If the seller avoids it, doesn't respond with what you want, walk away from the deal.

If I'm requested to specifically do something to complete the sale, I will do it and photograph / video and communicate with the purchaser prior to completion of the sale to ensure they are happy with it.

In the past on eBay I've stated that I am happy for ANY independent inspection to be done on the machine.  For the interstater's,  we pretty much have members in every corner.  If I was buying a machine interstate, I would ask for a member to visit and inspect the machine and / or photograph for me and report back prior to the game shipping.

I would be happy (if negotiated into the price) to have ANY commercial tech inspect the machine.  So I would welcome Mark's techs, Bumpers techs, BCW techs to inspect the machine and provide an independent report to the purchaser.  Obviously nobody can look into the future and like a pre-purchase inspection on a vehicle things can still go wrong.  But perhaps for a small fee (I am sure it could be done in an hour) would give some assurance to the purchaser.  Maybe this is something the commercial guys can look at?

I don't agree that the mods need to do a lot of work in the for sale section.  I do think perhaps a locked thread for anybody (mostly new people to the hobby / buying pins) should read before buying privately or commercially.  Perhaps it can list the following:

• Research.  Do your research.  Look on http://www.ipdb.org to get an idea of what the playfield / plastics / ramps should look like.
• Research.  Check the owners thread and email / PM an owner of the machine and ASK what to look out for, common problems, wear spots, hard to get parts etc.
• Ask for an independent inspection by another member.
• Ask for more photos, better descriptions
• Check http://www.pinpedia.com for recent ebay sales prices
• Compare machines.  Visit a commercial seller, inspect their machines, ask questions.

 

[rads]

As a seller, if you are adding a link to ebay you are costing yourself fees.

As a buyer, I would like the opportunity to purchase games from sellers here before they are offered to the general public on ebay.

If I imported containers of pinballs and paid for sponsorship, would I be allowed to advertise as a commercial seller?

Nino,

The idea of a selling template is great.  I will use it if I advertise here or on ebay.  It will help with my items de******ion.  I hope I am not compelled to answer each question to enable me to place an ad as there are answers i may not be able to give.  

[Pintoxicated]

Nino,

The idea of a selling template is great.  I will use it if I advertise here or on ebay.  It will help with my items de******ion.  I hope I am not compelled to answer each question to enable me to place an ad as there are answers i may not be able to give.  
[/quote]



That's a good point and easily fixed.  Honesty is the best policy, you can never be criticised for being honest.  If you don't know then that's your answer - "I don't know"

[Creech]

Chill out guys. Everyone seems to be getting a bit hot under the collar about this. 

The idea of a template is great. We will work on this approach.

We will not be restricting sales to only commercial guys and forcing members to put up eBay links only. Won't happen.     

I get the sense that due to a few peoples bad experiences, everyone is being tarnished with the same brush. Hundreds of machines have been sold on AP to very happy customers. Let's not get carried away with 1 or 2 bad outcomes. These incidents can never be prevented I'm afraid. If you try to stop it on AP then it will still happen somewhere else. How does that help the hobby? If the seller wishes to misrepresent a machine then they will pay in the long run.

The checklist approach is a good one. It gives the buyer some assurance about the quality of the machine being sold. This allows them to approach the sale with as much info as possible and to go in with eyes wide open.

[MartyJ]

The template Creech is a good idea.

The reason i wanted to differentiate between a professional seller, and a non professional seller, is that when a professional seller does a checklist, i know for arguments sake the boards etc have been looked at by a professional tech. I then feel confident that the machine wont turn up with various board faults. The buyer needs to know if he is dealing with professionals or amateurs.

Perhaps, amateur sellers shld also list who will be working on the machines. Volunteers or Trained professionals.? Just a suggestion.
It makes a big difference with board repairs and underplayfiield repairs etc, espescially since these items are 240 volt. ?
To say a "tech" is working on the machine may not be good enough. ?

Brett,

There is very specific legislation down here in Victoria which covers your concerns.  I am sure that the other states have similar legislation as well.

# A business – including major charitable organisations – supplying or offering to supply second hand electrical equipment must also attach a label stating that the equipment is second hand and that the equipment has been inspected and tested and that it complies with Australian/New Zealand Standard(AS/NZS) 3760; OR
# If it has not been tested, the business supplying or offering to supply second hand electrical equipment must include a clear statement on the label, stating the equipment is second hand, with additional words as follows: DANGER – DO NOT USE OR CONNECT TO SUPPLY – THIS ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT MAY BE FAULTY AND SHOULD BE INSPECTED AND TESTED BY A COMPETENT PERSON IN ACCORDANCE WITH AS/NZS 3760

So any machine purchased commercially from a business must be tag and tested and also be labelled as second hand equipment.

A person supplying or offering to supply second hand electrical equipment must have a label attached to the equipment stating that the equipment is second hand;

(source http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/ForElectricityProfessionals/Electricalequipmentandappliances/Saleandsupplyofsecondhandequipment/tabid/59/Default.aspx)

[Pintoxicated]

The template Creech is a good idea.

The reason i wanted to differentiate between a professional seller, and a non professional seller, is that when a professional seller does a checklist, i know for arguments sake the boards etc have been looked at by a professional tech. I then feel confident that the machine wont turn up with various board faults. The buyer needs to know if he is dealing with professionals or amateurs.

Perhaps, amateur sellers shld also list who will be working on the machines. Volunteers or Trained professionals.? Just a suggestion.
It makes a big difference with board repairs and underplayfiield repairs etc, espescially since these items are 240 volt. ?
To say a "tech" is working on the machine may not be good enough. ?

Trust me Brett there are so called professionals that sell machines well under the quality of those that would appear on this forum - they get weeded out eventually and that's why you won't find any on the forums and those that do pop up from time to time don't hang around too long anyway.  

There are some guys who it appears wouldn't be classed as professionals that I would place complete trust in over some that would loosely be termed professionals.  Nino is not a professional, Marty J isn't a professional, Ken Shipley isn't a professional but there wouldn't be too many guys that would question their ability - just to name a few.  

I think that there would be some guys who take offence to your comment that they may need to state who worked on their machine, there are plenty of guys who love to get their hands dirty and who do a terrific job on their machines.  It may be seen as a slap in the face to many of us who don't have the luxury of a tech on hand 24/7 to question their ability.  

When it comes down to it, we already have a fair idea of who we would and wouldn't like to buy a machine off and getting back to the sole purpose of this thread - a template is a tool and a guide to help describe a machine accurately and help steer unsuspecting buyers in the right direction which is what we want to achieve.

[FirePower]

I agree with what lots of others have said or implied here - a sale advertised through AP has nothing to do with AP and AP can't in any way be expected to arbitrate or regulate.  I reckon the private sales are a good thing for the forum.  A buyer who buys without looking or getting an awful lot of detail from the seller - whoever and where ever that is - is asking for trouble in my opinion.

MartyJ's guidelines posted earlier (about 7 posts prior to this) in this thread and any form of check list / disclosure sheet suggested out of here has got to help - but so does asking questions, viewing or getting someone else to look.