Author Topic: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????  (Read 1714 times)

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Offline Homepin

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - The Fix??
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2010, 07:12:44 PM »
A small update for those following the progress.

We spent a lot of time wondering what to do about the 'hard to find parts' - namely the 6800 micro and the 9602 oscillator chip - both are getting harder to find and if you do find them the price is starting to climb.

We found that a 6802 micro, whilst also classed as 'obsolete', is much easier to find and comes with a few bonuses. It has a built in oscillator circuit requiring an external crystal and a couple of caps, it also has inbuilt RAM which means  that the 6810 RAM chip can be left out - this is a particularly handy point as this RAM chip is in the battery 'corrosion zone'.

So our work to date allows for jumpers to be used to build the board EXACTLY like the original if you have, or are able to get (for example from Ken), the correct parts. If you can't then with a few extra parts you can use the 6802 micro.

We think that is the best of both worlds really.

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Offline ddstoys

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - The Fix??
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2010, 07:45:17 PM »
Thats an awsome feature Mike.    The oscilator chip was hard to find and when i did they had a limit per customer...

Offline Retropin

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2010, 05:42:51 PM »
Well ive done some more repairs to the  board since posting the last pictures... more i dived into it the more corrosion faults i found. Ive got bits of single strand wire all over the top of this board now.
 I also went to Prime Electronics here in Brisbane to get some new IC's... Jaycar are getting like Dick Smith.. i cant buy a 74ls156 there but i can if i buy one of their project kits as it comes with one... but no... is discontinued stock at Jaycar.
Prime are a bit more serious with components, but they seem to have embraced LED in a big way, so most of the shop is given over to little strings of lights which if you put a bazillion of together you get a modicum of light for general use.
Anyway... back to the point... yes they carry 74ls156.. they also had NEW 2114 RAM and have only just run out of 3081 transistor arrays... yeh go figure! So i stock up on lots of 74lsXXX for CPU and sound board.... nice big strip of IC's to take home for only $30.

I put the new IC's in place and decide to just install the board and not bench test it. CPU is disconnected from anything else... i turn her on and CPU LED comes on! For once im glad to see one of these irritating things lit up!
 Now CPU is meant to flash, then LED comes on and stays on.... didnt catch the flash but hey... its on!

So feeling brave i plug in the driver board and then turn her on...


BANG BANG BANG BANG!!!!!!
 


All solenoids are resetting over and over... flippers flip... bumpers bump.... drops reset... all are going for reset and not stopping.


LOL_ thats as far as ive got, but im pretty pleased with myself as it does mean PROGRESS!!!!!! And im feeling optimistic that even with the amount of corrosion that there was... it may just be possible to get this machine running after all

Offline Homepin

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2010, 06:15:03 PM »
Great news at last!
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Offline Retropin

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2010, 07:17:22 PM »
Nah - bollox to it... just went back to sort out the solenoids firing all the time and im right back to where i started... CPU not booting again..

... groan!@

Offline Retropin

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2010, 07:19:12 PM »
Another update on this if there is anyone still interested.... this corrosion is a bastard. I was very meticulous with what i had repaired etc... but now im finding that some of what tested good at the start now doesnt. The area that the corrosion has gone to is a lot further than i first thought.
Seems that there are some very fine line breaks in the traces that can test good on the bench and then surface once board is installed... how far they go, i have no idea as i thought id dealt with all the corrosion already.

My problem of course now is even if i do get it running, i have no idea just how long it will last... lasted just 2 power ups before!

I am having some success though... only TP6 ( Out counter) is faulty now..... Power Failure Reset is also, but this wont rectify till CPU boots.

Ill post a pic of the board... i have wire traces all over it now

Offline Homepin

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2010, 11:31:38 PM »
So it may be that starting from scratch and building up a new PCB has some merit...........
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Offline Retropin

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2010, 11:38:54 PM »
So it may be that starting from scratch and building up a new PCB has some merit...........


Certainly would have been quicker... plus i know it would be SOLID

Offline Homepin

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2010, 12:00:05 AM »
OK - let me tease you with an update......(keep in mind we are still many months away from having boards available)......




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Offline Retropin

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2010, 12:55:20 AM »
I had someone round today who looked at the board work i had done...... i chuckled when they were amazed at how many traces needed replacing considering im still not finished.

 They then added that they knew someone who was going to be making blank boards for zac games......


......... wonder who that could be Mike?


LOL- ill get this bloody board booting again... willing to bet my arse on it... its now got to "ultimate "challenge stage where im not stopping till ive licked this bastard...... I REFUSE TO ADMIT DEFEAT!!!!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 12:58:50 AM by Retropin »

Offline studley67

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2010, 01:58:18 PM »
gavin i have 4 zac's,and i am watching this thread with interest.i too wanted to learn these dreaded machines.damien
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Offline Retropin

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2010, 10:10:50 PM »
Well seeing as some of you are following this thread, ill continue the updates until ive got this sucker working again.
Im STILL working on the corrosion damage. Things i thought i had fixed are now problematic.. all sorts of cranky stuff is happening mainly due to the crappy makeup of these boards. When i replaced traces with single strand wire, some were very difficult to determine just where they went as they tend to disappear under IC's. I thought i was being smart by soldering directly to the trace and alleviating following the trace to its next logic point. Problem is that the traces really suck and have lifted where ive soldered. They are so thin that vibration tends to snap them clean off or create hairline cracks.
problem can be seen here circled in red... i did once have a wire soldered to this trace but noticed that it just didnt look right... it had snapped right at the end of the solder cutting its data path short. To find where this trace went to i had to remove the 4040 chip JUST to see if it went straight under it or deviated slightly... LOL - it went straight!




I also didnt like the look of the CPU 2650 socket... i had originally used the CLOSED type of socket here.. mainly cos im a tight arse and they are cheaper at Jaycar. When Mike "Homepin"came round he pointed me to the wire wound strip type as connections ABOVE the board can be easily tested as well as BELOW. I decided to change this socket and im glad i did... found ANOTHER floating pad.
The CPU tests SOLID now... i have all data stobes strobing as they should... im now 100% happy that this area is good


Ive also REtested the cct where the two RAMs interact.. this little area is essential to the CPU booting... Im happy that this is OK, but in all honesty there is so much damage up here and it gets so complicated that its hard to say im 100% happy with it... i have found a couple of mistakes here



I got to the point where 7 out of the 9 test points were good... this really is good progress and it does indicate that im taking steady steps towards getting this sucker running and its VERY staisfying to see good pulses on the CRO where they are meant to be

1 test point that is not working is POWER FAILURE... im not fussed about this as i can simulate power good by forcing a high onto pin3 at voltage input connector CN9 by shorting pins 3 & 4.
My main concern is test point 6.. OUT COUNTER.

This is a complicated little cct driven by 2 JK Flip Flop IC's 74ls156 and 4040... seemed to me that lack of signals are my main faults on this board, so i pulled the sockets and tested the traces... yet again.... found another couple of faults... these are impossible to detect without sanding back the board to reveal the copper traces... very fine lines can be seen on the solder pads... put your meter across these lines and you reveal an open cct.

CCT has been repaired and quality sockets installed

[
Unfortunately, this did not fix my cct.
 Some years back i did electrical engineering at TAFE in my spare time.. all we used in Digital Applications were NAND gates and bloody JK flip flops. Its been quite a while since ive worked with these and im finding it hard to get my head round... i once used to be able to read a truth table for these, but i look at it now and it might as well be in Swahili. Im going to need to pull my notes out and found out whats wrong... i SHOULD be getting a HIGH from pin 11 ( 74ls156) but im not... this is a Q output whos state is determined by active clock and inputs..... Its at this point i start looking for little ceramic caps etc... but no luck here.. just a pull up resistor.

So... where am I? Well its all good actually... just the one test point to sort out and im pretty certain i can get this board to boot...she aint too pretty though.
front looks like this



Back looks like this



I did start off doing the back with nice little twists in the wire trying to keep it neat, but i ended up with so much on the board that i gave up with these as it just added to the confusion. I had lots of little twists and it was difficult to see where a particular wire had its beginning and end. There is also no code to the colours chosen... i just got bored with yellow and moved to red etc.

Anyone with good knowledge of JK flip flops feel free to chime in... would save me a nights swotting from my old notes



Offline ddstoys

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2010, 12:07:45 AM »
Keep at it Gav will be worth it in the end just to say you beat it.

  I've been repairing a stern trident board for a guy and got to a similar point where it would work one boot then not the next I advised the guy about the altek board and he was happier to go that route as I really couldn't guarantee his original would keep running.   Will be great to have the option of mikes new boards when there available

Offline ajlaird

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2010, 08:24:56 AM »
Nearly there!

I did do a first year digital logic course at uni myself and I think still have the textbook; I could guess at how the flip-flops work but it has been a while. But from memory the flip-flop changes based on input when its trigger is pulsed.

A quick search shows that there are 4 sets of inputs with the corresponding outputs which changes when the clock is triggered:

J K Q
0 0 no change
0 1 0 (reset)
1 0 1 (set)
1 1 toggle

and Q bar is logically not Q (the opposite)

Offline FirePower

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Re: Dreaded acid corrosion - Some success?????
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2010, 09:31:59 AM »
The same as AJ said, but with a few more words on J K flip flops

Two outputs Q and Qbar, They are just inverts of each other, and they are never indeterminate ie they always have a value.

Two main inputs J and K with a third input, the clock.

In normal operation the clock input is significant as it is used as a trigger to evaluate for change. When the clock input goes from 0 to 1 the evaluation of inputs and determination of outputs is done.  This is significant, if you cut off the clock signal no change to outputs will occur.  eg stick the clock signal through an AND gate with an enable signal to turn the whole thing on / off as desired.

If J and K are both low when clock goes up then there is no change to Q (and off course Qbar)
If J and K are both hi when clock goes up then there is a toggle change to Q ie it changes state from what it previously was
If J and K are different when clock goes up then  then Q takes the value of J

Normally also has a Preset and Clear input that drive Q to either 0 or 1, irrespective of J, K and more importantly the clock

With all these words to explain, we see why the idea of truth tables came about!