Wizard Of OZ Pinball

[Freiherr]

Brett, with everything, you get what you are willing to pay for

It takes me 90 minutes to make 15 dozen pies
4'n'20 make 100000 per hour

I'm sure your pies are heaps better than the big guy's.

[Homepin]

The boards JJP are using are very likely being made in quite a large facility with automatic machinery and from my experience (once the blank PCBs are made) it is pretty simple to assemble several thousand a day as a very minimum.

It does take a huge amount of time to design the circuit, layout the board, have prototypes made (then probably hand assembled for 10 pcs) then debug, find faults and do this all over again. I can't see how driver boards are that complicated to begin with though??? Remember JJP are lkely to be using standard (off the shelf) computer mainboards and maybe this is where the REAL problem is - they get driver boards finished and then the mainboard goes obsolete before they can actually get anythng into production - this would make perfect sense to me.

Sorry, but to me - if I was spending millions on PCBs - I would have tighter control of this situation, but that's just me.

Jacks story doesn't really ring true to me.

He lost me when he started taking deposits on a second machine without ever having delivered the first - too dodgy to me. I don't care how good WOZ is/might be - it is just outright shifty businesss practice given the stupidly long delays with WOZ.

Given the deposits JJP has I would be shipping machines both built and kits from PRC within six months - no excuses and no bullshit about problems with manufacturing in USA.

What I should have asked is Mike(Homepin) how many boards should be able to get made on a daily basis if you had put in a 1.6 million dollar order as Jack said, given the board making place had several staff.

Is this a slow process because of labour, or a slow process in not having enough machines to make the boards ?

How many could a chineese firm make a day I wonder ?? .........singles arriving daily seems very small numbers to me ? 

[Homepin]

I forgot to mention that Data East boards were all made in China so it is very likely that Stern boards are as well.

It is very flag waving and admirable to try and keep things made in your own country but when they can be made in China - in most cases with BETTER quality - and for 1/10 of the price and often in a few days from scratch, it just doesn't make any sense at all.

As a small example, one of my commercial customers asked me about a new product that required a small PCB. I hand made a sample for them over a weekend and they debugged it and made mods to the PCB artwork the following week. One week later I had the finished boards in my hands. The entire process from initial discussion to completed boards took less than a month.

Other factors are the cost of parts. Last week I purchased a few reels of surface mount parts here in China. I bought Samsung branded parts as they were only slightly more expenxive than the no name ones. A reel of 5000 resistors cost me $5. I didn't even bother looking up the price in Australia but I'll bet they are about $40 or more.

It is a very stupid business decision to make PCBs in any place OTHER than China IMO.

[Caveoftreasures]

Thanks Mike for your insight.  JJP should have given you the contract to make these boards, it would have run alot smoother, and I am sure you wouldnt have knocked back the 1.6 million contract.

I am now waiting to see a video, or photos of the JJP production line starting up with all the workers when these boards turn up in massive numbers on the 8th of April.

[Freiherr]

Jacks story doesn't really ring true to me.

He lost me when he started taking deposits on a second machine without ever having delivered the first - too dodgy to me. I don't care how good WOZ is/might be - it is just outright shifty businesss practice given the stupidly long delays with WOZ.

Given the deposits JJP has I would be shipping machines both built and kits from PRC within six months - no excuses and no bullshit about problems with manufacturing in USA.

Nicely put, I had the same gut feel.
When you start a business, you do it tough for the first 5 years and you do it with your own or borrowed money. Customers then pay you for your finished product or service. You do not pay for a new car and then wait 2 years for delivery, why should it be any different for pinballs?

[Strangeways]

Speculation on how the build process should work, and the constant advise on how it "should be done" is almost to the point of laughable.

Hands up how many members have mass produced an arcade / pinball / redemption machine 

 

I think JJP biggest mistake was to take $ for pre orders for their second title.

[RottyGuy]

You'd expect JJ would focus all their energy on getting the first game out the door before talking about what's coming up in the future
and taking deposits for game #2....

[Strangeways]

Speculation on how the build process should work, and the constant advise on how it "should be done" is almost to the point of laughable.

Hands up how many members have mass produced an arcade / pinball / redemption machine  

 

I think JJP biggest mistake was to take $ for pre orders for their second title.

I think its a fair point Nino since the machines are over 15 months late, and another 2 major deadlines have been missed again, being no machines built n sent out by the end of March, and no computer boards at the end of March, as promised by JJP for many months.

Perhaps if the boards were fully produced in China like was suggested, they would be done by now.? Its a fair question.

I dont think AP members, being able to/or have experience producing a arcade game or a pinball machine has anything to do with it respectfully.
Perhaps, as someone has said, If JJP hadnt of got peoples monies upfront, and they werent sitting on the 7 million dollars already, perhaps these deadlines and dates wouldnt have been moved so often and as much. They would have had a much bigger desire/NEED $$ to get these deadlines met or face massive financial losses, but when you already have 7 million of other peoples monies, maybe you dont perform as well/as quick ? who knows.

The build/design/management process at JJP has clearly gone astray when they are 15 mths late, have only ordered boards in mid January, and are still testing boards and have just missed another public machine build and release date and board intake date.
When things do go wrong, and clearly they have, the only smart thing to do is to wonder/suggest how things should have or could have been done. Sort of reverse engineering problems for next time.
Perhaps someone from the USA may read our collective posts, perhaps they may reword the next board release date, or the next machines build date, and when built machines will be leaving the factory date etc.?

I know another AP member recently told Jack in a open email, via the WOZ forum, that he should be careful and reword what he says, meaning people hang onto his every word, and when things dont happen, people get upset. I guess no one would be discussing the WOZ thing if things werent 15 months late. Just discussing, nothing else. Stern used to be the same, late with designs and machines built substandard, they upset alot of people, lost alot of customers, and have had to claw their way back. No one is perfect in this industry. But these recent missed dates, on some pretty big and repeated often promises, have put the WOZ thing into the limelight. Lets see what happens on the 8th. I want the things to get rolling down the line as much as the next bloke. I want to go to my friends houses, and play their games as much as the next bloke.

I think its normal to discuss both the positives and the negatives. That gives balance. I will be the first to post more positive stuff when the machines start getting thrown into trucks.
  

My point is "Speculation on how the build process should work, and the constant advise on how it "should be done" is almost to the point of laughable."

It is valid as no one here has ever mass produced a pinball, and although some THINK they know the inner working and fiscal position of JJP, all amount to speculation and guesswork to drag the project down. JJP have not released ONE SINGLE title yet, but the detractors line up like vultures to a carcass. 

Stern have been around a lot longer, and STILL make CONSTANT mistakes - designs, software and the general build standard is set by them, and it is a story of success in cost cutting. I'd be more worried about supporting the current stern line up than throwing stones at a newcomer with an obvious better build quality.. Most of my call outs are on late model Sterns that dealers don't / won't repair. Try getting spare parts for a Whitestar MPU (6 weeks and counting)..

So lets keep the negative vibe against a machine that is not even released yet. Let's sweep the constant build issues with their competition under the carpet. 

[Sunfox]

As far as I understand it... the board production company in the US has received the blanks from China, but they went through a whole process where they made a small quantity of EACH BOARD (there's the main driver board, possibly a lighting board, plus over a dozen other boards that mount under the playfield and elsewhere) which they wanted tested and approved before they would begin mass production.

I think what Jack's saying is what's coming in currently are quantities of single boards - ie. one board might be the middle of the Yellow Brick Road - but not complete sets of final production boards.

It's like you're producing a deck of cards, and all you've got so far are the diamonds and clubs, but you're waiting on the spades and hearts.

[Homepin]

I do this all the time for several customers I have in Australia. I can take an order from verbal to a run of 10 test boards in well under a month.

I have a bridge for sale as well if anyone is interested...

As far as I understand it... the board production company in the US has received the blanks from China, but they went through a whole process where they made a small quantity of EACH BOARD (there's the main driver board, possibly a lighting board, plus over a dozen other boards that mount under the playfield and elsewhere) which they wanted tested and approved before they would begin mass production.

I think what Jack's saying is what's coming in currently are quantities of single boards - ie. one board might be the middle of the Yellow Brick Road - but not complete sets of final production boards.

It's like you're producing a deck of cards, and all you've got so far are the diamonds and clubs, but you're waiting on the spades and hearts.

[Freiherr]

My understanding is that a bridge divides the data traffic. This generally helps in data processing efficiencies.
Speaking of bridges, Sydney Harbour Bridge was built on time.

[RottyGuy]

Rome wasn't built in a day 

[Caveoftreasures]

Someone mentioned this on a post today from the Woz forum.

Jack also mentioned the new production boards today at MPE.  He was going to show a picture but ran out of time.  He noted that current prototype boards were created "in house" and simply are not up to production standards.  He said it appears certain circuit connections are vulnerable to static and causing minor issues (including a possible issue they've seen with playfield lighting?) and they expect the quality of the production boards will resolve all of that. 

I hadnt heard of these issues before. Not sure what it all means yet. Will wait for the new batch of boards that are ?? arriving on the 8th of the month and see if these fix the current board issues.

Nothing else to report, but still lots of discussion of flipper strength being not enough with playfield lowered to a angle which slows gameplay.
The guy who wrote the above post suggested playfields were lowered to overcome lack of flipper strength, then said he wasnt sure of if flippers were or werent a issue.
All different opinions on ths stuff, but I think the best opinions will be from Ausie buyers when they play the real games when set up in Australia.

[ddstoys]

It's set up at the Melbourne home show today for anyone in the area

[ddstoys]

Hahaha Pete that's pretty funny.