Lady Luck is still giving me grief

[goodolddays]

Update.
If I open the normally closed A player relay switch connected to the one point card units (with a piece of paper) then game doesn't bust on 20 but does bust on 30 . So.. this obviously tells me the 10 unit card reels are both OK (as their outputs are connected together) , and yet checking the one point card units they do not have an earth at '2' (or higher) outputs when either reel is on 0 (and all switches on each reel are open at 0 as they should be)
 

[Retropin]

Ok - have printed it off.

For BUST to trip:

PLAYER BUST (  normally closed)
R.O RELAY
8 RELAY

OR

9 RELAY

 must all be closed unless you have a logic wiring fault.

Question is.. what will run a path to ground before these relays.

One of the paths is if "A' player relay normally open side is closed, this will trip BUST when 2nd Player 10 pt card DU is at 2nd increment ( this is 10pts though).

1st Player 10pt card DU will do the same at  2nd increment ( also 10 pts) if either 8 Relay OR 9 Relay AND RO relay are closed.

If it busts one 1 player then this path is wrong.

When 30 pts is active... it bypasses all the above and goes straight to player bust closed and coil pulls in.



SO.... at 20 points, im struggling to see any path to ground... can on;ly happen at 10 points with a shorted relay further up ( mmmm odds are against 2 or more faults, but it is possible).

OR

 score is displaying wrong... logic is correct and player 10 pt is at 30 ( bust) and you are seeing wrong numbers.


...Have to leave it.... im typing with a screaming baby here and kinda rushing this... be done for neglect soon!

[Retropin]

Update.
If I open the normally closed A player relay switch connected to the one point card units (with a piece of paper) then game doesn't bust on 20 but does bust on 30 . So.. this obviously tells me the 10 unit card reels are both OK (as their outputs are connected together) , and yet checking the one point card units they do not have an earth at '2' (or higher) outputs when either reel is on 0 (and all switches on each reel are open at 0 as they should be)
 

  let me absorb this and ill get back.... i suspect this 2 way relay... could be wired backwards

[goodolddays]

Thanks heaps Gav. 
This fault has done my head in for a few days now .. I really, really want to, and need to,  find the cause

[goodolddays]

Ok - have printed it off.

For BUST to trip:

PLAYER BUST (  normally closed)
R.O RELAY
8 RELAY

OR

9 RELAY

 must all be closed unless you have a logic wiring fault.

Understood.

Question is.. what will run a path to ground before these relays.



One of the paths is if "A' player relay normally open side is closed, this will trip BUST when 2nd Player 10 pt card DU is at 2nd increment ( this is 10pts though). (that is actually 20 points ) ..

1st Player 10pt card DU will do the same at  2nd increment ( also 10 pts) if either 8 Relay OR 9 Relay AND RO relay are closed.

If it busts one 1 player then this path is wrong.

When 30 pts is active... it bypasses all the above and goes straight to player bust closed and coil pulls in.



SO.... at 20 points, im struggling to see any path to ground... can on;ly happen at 10 points with a shorted relay further up ( mmmm odds are against 2 or more faults, but it is possible).

OR

 score is displaying wrong... logic is correct and player 10 pt is at 30 ( bust) and you are seeing wrong numbers.


...Have to leave it.... im typing with a screaming baby here and kinda rushing this... be done for neglect soon!

I am quite confident score displays are correct as score on reel matches earth on respective "position output" ie .. reel displays 1 when 1 output has earth etc .

[Retropin]

Couple of questions:

Does it bust at 20 for both 1 player and 2?

The scanned diagram cuts off... what happens on other side of PLAYER RELAY ... BROWN wire... where does this go?

Do 20 point relay AND bust relay activate at the same time and on 3rd increment.

Im really struggling to find a path to ground on 20 pts unless the BROWN wire takes us somewhere.

Also check that on "A "Player relay.. normally closed switch is GREEN with RED on one side and YELLOW  with BLUE  on the other... this one goes back on itself to a single leaf switch onm same relay

[goodolddays]

Couple of questions:

Does it bust at 20 for both 1 player and 2?

Yes it does .. should have mentioned that .. also note that increment outputs of each card score reel are connected together (player 1 10's to player 2 10's and player1 1's to player 2 1's)

The scanned diagram cuts off... what happens on other side of PLAYER RELAY ... BROWN wire... where does this go?

I've scanned more (see attachment)

Do 20 point relay AND bust relay activate at the same time and on 3rd increment.
Yes, both activate at the same time when card score reaches 20 for either player (either 10 to 20, or 10 thru 11 etc to 20)

Im really struggling to find a path to ground on 20 pts unless the BROWN wire takes us somewhere.

I've also started looking at where the brown wire goes

Also check that on "A "Player relay.. normally closed switch is GREEN with RED on one side and YELLOW  with BLUE  on the other... this one goes back on itself to a single leaf switch onm same relay

Will check that shortly and advise

Thanks Gav

[goodolddays]

forgot to attach the 2nd scan of the schematic .. here it is

[goodolddays]

Also, the earth for the 20 relay comes via either of the 10's card reels when they are at 2nd position. Earth is fed to them via a switch on the ball index relay (which is active when a ball is in play) and then via the make/break switch on the player relay. Also, when the 20 relay is activated , earth is seperately  fed to the 1st position on the 10's card reels (not sure why).

[goodolddays]

Couple of questions:


Also check that on "A "Player relay.. normally closed switch is GREEN with RED on one side and YELLOW  with BLUE  on the other... this one goes back on itself to a single leaf switch onm same relay

Checked A player relay is wired correctly , also checked with meter and compared against my own Lady Luck.

Cheers
Dave

[Retropin]

Im trying to keep this simple here.

We HAVE to assume that the wiring is all OK until we have eliminated all other possibilities.

Im clinging to the time when you opened up the "A" player leaf switch. This allowed game to bust at 30 NOT 20 as it should... so with this switch open - logic is good.

There is NO path to ground on 20 points... not one that would fire the bust relay anyway.

So im thinking that at 20 points there is a short on a wiring or the stepper that is linking the 20 and the 30 together.

IF this is the case, then ground is given a path directly to BUST... we dont need 8 Re or 9 RE or even RO RE... it goes straight to bust relay and coil. And if im reading correct - you have verified the correct operation of 8,9 and RO

Make sure your wiper is not touching both contacts.. im assuming front and back are active on this.

Also lift the contact arm and test between increment 2 and 3... should be open.
Drop contact arm and test again - should still be open.


If the above tests OK, then its getting hard as 20 points is completely isolated from BUST



Also.... the game does start at zero yes?? It doesnt give 10 points at start up does it?

[goodolddays]

Im trying to keep this simple here.

We HAVE to assume that the wiring is all OK until we have eliminated all other possibilities.

Im clinging to the time when you opened up the "A" player leaf switch. This allowed game to bust at 30 NOT 20 as it should... so with this switch open - logic is good.

There is NO path to ground on 20 points... not one that would fire the bust relay anyway.

So im thinking that at 20 points there is a short on a wiring or the stepper that is linking the 20 and the 30 together.

IF this is the case, then ground is given a path directly to BUST... we dont need 8 Re or 9 RE or even RO RE... it goes straight to bust relay and coil. And if im reading correct - you have verified the correct operation of 8,9 and RO

Make sure your wiper is not touching both contacts.. im assuming front and back are active on this.

Also lift the contact arm and test between increment 2 and 3... should be open.
Drop contact arm and test again - should still be open.


If the above tests OK, then its getting hard as 20 points is completely isolated from BUST



Also.... the game does start at zero yes?? It doesnt give 10 points at start up does it?

Welcome to my nightmare Gav . This is a bitch of a fault . I have already checked there is no continuity between 2 and 3 position on both 10's card reels (with and without the wiper installed).

Yes, i have verified correct operation and adjustment of switches on 8, 9 and rollover relays .

I too am clinging to the fact that opening the "A" player switch confirmed the 10's card reels (and that part of the cct) is working correctly. This test also verified that there is no active ground path via 8's 9's and rollover relay when there shouldn't be.
This test also isolated (in my mind) the cause to something on the side of the 1's card reels but I have just double checked them both again and can't find any short .
 Also, FYI, there is a seperate gorund wire connected to each of the 1's card reels that is not shown on the schematic. This is how they get fed a ground source.

I was also thinking about a false earth from the number match stepper, but it is isolated by a N.O switch on the dealer relay which is definietly open .

I'm starting to think I might have to try some creative rewiring ?

[goodolddays]

Sorry .. forgot to add, that yes, game starts at 0 as it should. Everything else (feature wise) is working correctly from my play testing so far.

[goodolddays]

One other thing . In my 1st post I mentioned that when the 20 relay trips, the resistance (to ground) on the ground lug of the coil for the bust relay drops by 1 ohm.
I just checked this on my own Lady Luck and there is no change of resistance . Not sure why this happens on the 2nd LL or what it means .

[Retropin]

One other thing . In my 1st post I mentioned that when the 20 relay trips, the resistance (to ground) on the ground lug of the coil for the bust relay drops by 1 ohm.
I just checked this on my own Lady Luck and there is no change of resistance . Not sure why this happens on the 2nd LL or what it means .

Possibly because we have a cleaner path to ground... but this is a red herring to chase, im sure of it.

My last post didnt make sense.. i had an idea then when i went to post i lost my train of thought.

The key here is the A player relay, but the problem we have is that the ground path for 20 is definately going through this path and to do that 8 or 9 and RO must be closed... all A player does is determine if its 1 or 2 player thats active....mmmm.....

Can you test for continuity on 20pt stepper position and that side of BUST coil.. then 20pt to RO relay.

it should be isolated from both. Do this with game off and then on before game start. Then again once game is registered and ball 1 is indexed.

I want to make sure that its a relay coming over and not a fault that is hard wired.
I then want to make sure that where Ball Index relay is on far left of diagram ( this goes to White with Blue @ 9C on diagram) that its not a fault elsewhere through ball indexing.


Im loving this mate.. waiting on parts to fix my machines, so il do yours instead and its an EM conundrum