Fathom Backglass

[Pinprick]

PM sent

[FirePower]

Thanks Retropin for the explanation.  Without knowing the process or understanding it I thought the CPR reply was pretty weak, dismissive and treated the customer as one who should be grateful.  Clearly they know the colour match is poor so they should be saying that and making their excuses on the sales and gallery page, not presenting it after purchase.  They have this information and it should be presented to enable would be purchasers to make a fair decision.  The purchaser may not have an original to compare with, they may think someone selling a "reproduction" has indeed reproduced it.

I've never bought anything from them, but it seems they have a few products not up to scratch and are getting a history of poor attention to detail.  I'd beware.

[Strangeways]

I've never bought anything from them, but it seems they have a few products not up to scratch and are getting a history of poor attention to detail.  I'd beware.

Sorry, I cannot agree with your assessment of CPR's products.

Care to list the products "not up to scratch" ? Here's what I can recall ;

FLASH Backglass - The repro was a little bigger than the factory backglass and presented an issue whereby the repro did not fit in the headbox. This occurred on a very low number of machines. The issue was not reported until a handful of people that had the smaller sized headbox found the problem. Refunds were provided.

Hang Glider Plastics set - Ball arch plastic was 60% larger than it should have been. Again - full refund and they are in the "bargain Basement" section of their website.

Gorgar Plastics - color was not exactly a perfect match.

Haunted house - Slight misregistration of the credit window

Fathom Backglass - There is no purple in the original, yet present in the repro.

What about the 95% of their other reproductions ? BTW - I bought ALL of these products and I'm 100% impressed with their attention to detail and faithful reproduction.

Playboy Playfield - Stunning - saved a machine from being parted out
Fathom Playfield - Stunning - saved a machine from being parted out
EDB Playfield - Stunning - saved a machine from being parted out
Xenon Playfield - Stunning - saved a machine from being parted out
Flight 2000 backglass - Stunning - saved a machine from being parted out
Haunted House - Slight misregistration of the credit window, bit still saved a machine from being parted out

Force II - The guys GAVE me a spare backglass as I didn't have one at the time.

Ditto for all the plastic sets for the above titles that compliment the playfields.

I have purchased their seconds Playfields - Eight Ball with a hole drilled in the wrong location - but that was hidden under the apron.
I have purchased their seconds plastics sets - Better than their competitor's "firsts".

I am currently committed to

Medusa Playfield
Flight 2000 Playfield - Will save the machine from being parted out
Flash Gordon playfield - Will save the machine from being parted out

I have no requirement for a Fathom backglass, so I didn't pay too much attention to the progress of the repro. I was aware that the gallery would be posted and l always check the gallery of any purchase, so if I'm not happy, I would simply not purchase. If I owned a Fathom without a backlgass, I would still buy the backglass - purple or no purple. I don't agree with their response regarding the purple color, but who else is actively SAVING these classics by producing repro products ?

CPR are a bunch of hobbyists that have tooled up to provide a service based from their own basements. Their track record of providing high quality products is unmatched in the repro industry. They made a mistake, but that's hardly "a history of poor attention to detail". Compared with other ventures producing classic playfields and backglass for these titles - hang on - there aren't any..

Bottom line - if it were not for these guys, there would be more machines being parted out. They have saved more games than produced a "bad" product. Based on my personal experience with the team at CPR, I would not hesitate buying their products and would recommend their products to other collectors and restorers.

Anyone who doubt's my assessment is more than welcome to personally view any of the above mentioned repros and check for themselves.

[Pop Bumper Pete]

Is your fathom Backglass also a little streaky?
Put a light behind that purple patch, the color is not as solid as it could be

Nino, like you, I like it that CPR is making reproductions
but sometimes they do drop the ball
Eightball playfield, is streaky in the solid green
a hole is out of place on Xenon
Small problems, sure


but I will keep buying from them

[FirePower]

Sorry, I cannot agree with your assessment of CPR's products.  .....

<and so on, snipped for brevity by Firepwer, but in full one reply below this>

Not quite sure why you've come in so heavily here Nino, you've probably fanned a fire that would have quietly burnt out naturally but I happily stand by what I said.

You (and I and others) quite willingly and happy jump on the band wagon to criticise and ridicule ebayers selling machines that are inaccurately or falsely over described, detailed faults are picked out and articulated on this site so I don't really get why my comment in this thread drew such a strong defence from you.  As I stated I've never bought anything from CPR and I add that I have nothing to gain by either knocking or plugging them or anyone else.

If you contend that being a small business or having saved some machines or having some good products is justification for not completely and accurately describing a product then I do not agree.  CPR know there are faults with a few of their products and yet they do not state these faults - this is dishonest and misleading.  There is absolutely no justification for this. That they are hobbyists is irrelevant, clearly they are running a commercial operation and seeking to make money.

As to the list of products "not up to scratch", putting aside the emphasis you altered by the clumsy cutting of my words which more accurately quoted were "a few products not up to scratch", I was happy enough with what had been listed in this thread (the Fathom bg, the Gorgar and SI plastics) and thought these examples spoke more than well enough to support my comments.  You've expanded the list well but missed a few also; there are minor faults with Diner, Seawitch, BK2000, Comet, EATPM plastics and earlier issues with the plastic used on those for Diner, Banzai and Pinbot. Not all of these are currently for sale and some errors may have been fixed in subsequent reruns.  However it suggests to me that generally their quality control is poor.

When known, faults need to be spelt out on their sales web site so potential purchasers know that they are buying a product that is not a faithful reproduction. Many people will find these faults small or have no alternative and be happy or at least willing to accept them as they are - that's the purchasers' choice to make once they have the full information. I think CPR would look much more credible by doing this.  Additionally having read some of the discussions and answers provided by CPR in this thread and on other forums - RPG and AussieArcade - I find the CPR attitude to mistakes and the responses to customers to be lacking and far below satisfactory.

Finally I didn't and don't set out to crucify them, we are certainly better off with them, my intent was just to recommend caution. I'm glad you're happy with them Nino, but for me, my bottom line remains "I'd beware".

[Strangeways]

Is your fathom Backglass also a little streaky?
Put a light behind that purple patch, the color is not as solid as it could be

Nino, like you, I like it that CPR is making reproductions
but sometimes they do drop the ball
Eightball playfield, is streaky in the solid green
a hole is out of place on Xenon
Small problems, sure


but I will keep buying from them

Pete - I didn't have a requirement for the backglass, as all my Fathoms have nice backglasses. I posted earlier on this thread that there is definitely an error on this backglass and I'm not convinced that the reply from CPR was valid. I agree they dropped the ball on this project. I would still purchase this backglass over the repro done by Phoenixarcade as I've seen that glass and there is a loss of detail in places. It's more "pixilated".

Sorry, I cannot agree with your assessment of CPR's products.  .....

<and so on, snipped for brevity by Firepwer, but in full one reply below this>

Not quite sure why you've come in so heavily here Nino, you've probably fanned a fire that would have quietly burnt out naturally but I happily stand by what I said.

You (and I and others) quite willingly and happy jump on the band wagon to criticise and ridicule ebayers selling machines that are inaccurately or falsely over described, detailed faults are picked out and articulated on this site so I don't really get why my comment in this thread drew such a strong defence from you.  As I stated I've never bought anything from CPR and I add that I have nothing to gain by either knocking or plugging them or anyone else.

If you contend that being a small business or having saved some machines or having some good products is justification for not completely and accurately describing a product then I do not agree.  CPR know there are faults with a few of their products and yet they do not state these faults - this is dishonest and misleading.  There is absolutely no justification for this. That they are hobbyists is irrelevant, clearly they are running a commercial operation and seeking to make money.

As to the list of products "not up to scratch", putting aside the emphasis you altered by the clumsy cutting of my words which more accurately quoted were "a few products not up to scratch", I was happy enough with what had been listed in this thread (the Fathom bg, the Gorgar and SI plastics) and thought these examples spoke more than well enough to support my comments.  You've expanded the list well but missed a few also; there are minor faults with Diner, Seawitch, BK2000, Comet, EATPM plastics and earlier issues with the plastic used on those for Diner, Banzai and Pinbot. Not all of these are currently for sale and some errors may have been fixed in subsequent reruns.  However it suggests to me that generally their quality control is poor.

When known, faults need to be spelt out on their sales web site so potential purchasers know that they are buying a product that is not a faithful reproduction. Many people will find these faults small or have no alternative and be happy or at least willing to accept them as they are - that's the purchasers' choice to make once they have the full information. I think CPR would look much more credible by doing this.  Additionally having read some of the discussions and answers provided by CPR in this thread and on other forums - RPG and AussieArcade - I find the CPR attitude to mistakes and the responses to customers to be lacking and far below satisfactory.

Finally I didn't and don't set out to crucify them, we are certainly better off with them, my intent was just to recommend caution. I'm glad you're happy with them Nino, but for me, my bottom line remains "I'd beware".

EBay machines are not reproductions. Can't see a correlation at all.

I've come in "heavy" because CPR have filled a HUGE hole in pinball restoration, and I'm tired of the negative opinions from people who have not used their products to preserve a pinball machine and seen the benefits provided by this service. I'm not singling you out Firepower, I'm just stating my opinion as I see it, based on spending thousands with CPR and having an understanding of their process and time spent providing the service.

I knew the Haunted House had a slight window registration issue prior to buying it. Took 5 minutes to move the display. Much better than having no backglass on my machine.

CPR have dropped the ball - I've ALREADY stated this earlier. Not sure why you think I'm defending their mistake, because I'm not. You have painted a picture that their products have flaws and they lack quality control. That's my beef. I have listed the repro parts I've purchased and NONE have flaws. ALL of them are stunning and faithful reproductions. I could not be happier with their service, attention to detail and the fact that they are hobbyists that went to the trouble of tooling up and providing a service to preserve pinball machines.

Slight color variations. I've heard that as well. I agree with their reasoning that the colors of the plastics should be faithful to the original. They are not going to produce different "fades" to suit each customer. They were upfront about EATPM when it was brought to their attention. I'm sure that they have learnt a lot from producing over 40 plastics sets and only had issues with a few sets. The CPR guys are always happy to address issues on RGP - where all the feedback seems to be posted. Some complaints are valid, some are not. Some post complimentary comments. I don't post on RGP, and I'm sure that my comments would be positive.  I think Kevin and mike have answered and admitted to issues when they arise. I guess it is difficult to repro a plastic from 30 years from an unfaded NOS original (if it can be sourced). Honestly, I don't mind a slight variotion if it means I don't have to stare at a broken slingshot plastic on my repro playfield.

If buyers have any concerns or doubts about what they are buying, there is always a gallery of the product to view where an informed descion can be made prior to purchasing. What I find interesting is that not one single thread on RGP has highlighted the Fathom issue. All feedback has been complimentary.

I understand your problem with CPR is that their business model lacks being upfront about issues. I'm happy that there is someone providing the service and I can see past the low percentage of errors. In fact, I've bought a few "seconds" items from the "Bargain Basement".

Fathom Backglass - It is the wrong color. If I had a Fathom with a damaged or missing backglass, I'd still buy it.

[Retropin]

Nicely put Firepower,

Bottom line is that CPR have done some good stuff and are well respected for their products.
Yes. without these guys many pins would not get the restore they beg, but lets not allow that fact to cloud our judgement.. ive never been one to be happy with at least "something".

CPR make good coin from repros and permissions are sought to make these. There are a couple of companies that have a monopoly on reproduction BALLY and WILLIAMS material.. that in itself is not really an issue... i have a monopoly on GOTTLIEB stencils, so i can hardly complain here.

Problem is that FATHOM colours are WRONG - no 2 ways to put it... its a bloody shocker to be quite frank.

Im assuming some sort of quality control... but here it seems to be non existant... the reply from CPR is a piss take and tells the end user to just be happy they got "something" even if it is wrong.

This approach to a monopoly is quite simply astounding.

The reply contradicts itself where it claims to be "close" if CPR handle the films... can we assume that they didnt handle the films on this one and if not, why were they accepted in the first place.

I used to share a flat with a 4 colour planner... it was his job to do magazine front pages etc and to make sure that flesh tones looked just that and not alien like.. he would often point out mistakes on magazines and laugh... myself, i couldnt really tell unless it was bloody obvious.

ANY decent 4 colour planner would never have built up that colouring.

CPR seriously got it wrong here and looking at the reply id say its care factor zero.

Sorry Nino... but your only as good as your products... yep we can all handle the odd cock up - it happens, we are human... but this is more than that and in all honesty CPR's reply displays an attitude befitting of a shonky operator

[Strangeways]

Gav - As stated, I KNOW ithe Fathom repro is not a faithful reproduction.

So to bring the attention to this issue (with the intention of clarification), other than one email that was posted (an extract) here, can someone who has a BG post the question on RGP ? We all agree the reason stated for the inaccuracy is not clear. All I get is this ;

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_frm/thread/69a9e9ae1c7599ae/97f2386f25e2b0a0?lnk=gst&q=fathom+backglass#97f2386f25e2b0a0

[Retropin]

Gav - As stated, I KNOW ithe Fathom repro is not a faithful reproduction.

Thats understood mate and i also hear your sentiments and see your point.

Im just amazed at the reply from CPR.. i can live with a SLIGHT variation of colour and yes - even with purple, this repro is better than nothing.

But honestly mate... the reply falls way short of what i would expect from these guys.

droped the ball ... yes and with no intention of picking it up it seems

[studley67]

 ^&^i will bet they were not priced as seconds

[RatBag]

Looks like the TZ mini playfield is the latest target on RGPhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/15de896519dde47a#

[Pop Bumper Pete]

I did accepet there explination on Gorgar plastics
Over the originals 10000 (?) machine run, I am sure the colors were not always the same

Even now with  Stern, specs change over a run (my Ironman, whiplash is missing his whips, added to later games :(  )

[Retropin]

Gorgar plastics would have been screened and so batches of inks made up... some slight variations can be expected if strict colour mixing ratios are not adhered to.

Fathom is printed... no excuses there, they ran with an incorrect file

[Strangeways]

Looks like the TZ mini playfield is the latest target on RGPhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/15de896519dde47a#

Yep - and if the whinger read the reasoning why they left the bevel out, he could have made an informed choice, or made his own mini playfield.

"Crisis" is pretty much summed up -

"Dosent anybody actually "read" discriptions of products prior to purchasing them so that they know exactly what they are buying?....Or are people just looking for something to complain about and too lazy to read? "

[wonder]

Having a backglass with flaws is better than not having one that for sure.

For the amount of stuff they do reproduce compared to everyone else, i take the good with the bad with them.
Yes, not perfect and they would all ready no that.

I did think the price was low for this at $199 when a paid $350 for one of Phoenix repo ,witch i will use on my machine when i finally get time to do it.Kevin did send a detail response to me but i didn't think is was right to just post up the whole email he sent to me.If you need any more information on the process i think you should drop Kevin a email himself.The Solar fire backglass that came with it look fantastic ,but i dont have another one next to it check.

Max, will catch up and you can come and have a look to see for yourself if you still want it for wall hanging.