Old V New..?

[Olivia_jason]

Point taken on lcd but bring what NEW, what is that you guys want besides from a lcd?
I am really interested to hear what is this big innovation that Stern should have done by now, that obviously many of you guys would have done if you were in charge?

+ 100

if its so easy, anyone who has ever said Stern follows or hasnt innovated should easily be able to come up with a list of things that we have all been missing since 1999...

I am all ears open....cause criticism without answers to me, isnt constructive criticism, its just knocking...which i find frustrating personally....espescially if u havent emailed Stern with these great ideas over the past decade...

Can anyone list this innovation that has been staring us all in the face but no one has done for 13 years....(and it has to be gameplay orientated, not new 2013 computer boards hidden in a metal box the player will never see or know about).. it has to be both visual or at least audible, or be something u can see, touch or experience...except a LCD, what is innovation for pinball...shld be very easy for people to list,,or is it ??  

Why should I list something that has never been innovated ? How can I list something that does not even EXIST  

My era is the golden age of pinball, where innovation was the domain of ALL the manufacturers. That's what made the industry so successful. Can you list the Stern innovations since 1999 ? Can ANYONE list the innovative ideas that Stern have come up with that have impacted the industry since 1999..

I'm no Stern basher, as I stated, I have two CLASSIC Sterns in my collection and both have innovative ideas that made them unique and collectible.

this is easy,ill list some ideas for them.

 hmmm 2012 every thing is networked isnt it?? even my tv is networked and my blueray player is networked. why havent they figured out with every game being produced for consoles and networked systems being the most popular why a pinball machine cant be networked and why you cant verse another player on their machine on the other side of the world live???

this is the sort of thing that would make pinball awesome and popular.
 if they were really smart they can charge for the use of their server like xbox, playstation, world of war craft and any other networked system,

 i recon its a bit simple for a pinball to only have one game on it, why cant their be room for more than one set of rules?,
 atm its only easy or hard why cant there be different rules? with different games using the same theme and what is on the playfield,and you choose what style of game you wont to play?
It seems they are home use mostly why not have that option?, certainly make the game fun for a longer time, if they worry about revenue then sell the extra rules, and people pay and download them.

im no genius but stuff like that makes sense, by only looking around my living room for ideas.

making just money of the machine being purchased is dumb these days, would apple be as rich as they are if they only sold iphones with out itunes and app stores??

how awesome would it be to have a 4 player game against people here?, live in real time and their scores on your game so you know what you are fighting against, and you could have full death match style games where you fight it out, or take turns like a traditional game of pinball.

[4_amusement_only]

Stern in 2000 tried the concept of linking games to other machines once before with their prototype 'Golden Cue'. Never eventuated.

Since then the only piece of innovation that is worthy of the title 'innovation'; Stewies Playfield from Family Guy.
It was novel, it was perfect for the theme, worked very well and well constructed. But again it is not a progression for others to follow, I thought it was different and innovative for that title alone.

[Caveoftreasures]

Can anyone list what stern didnt innovate since 1999 is the better question.
And that's my point. If stern are not innovators, if they aren't a company that hasn't designed things to the fullest, like they are a letdown or are just followers etc etc etc, or stern hasn't done the best that they could have done, or should have done, then I think any person who bags them or knocks them should explain specifically what it is they should have done.....but , it seems so far no one can...which is what I thought would happen.

Personally, unless someone can come up with the things that stern should have done, I don't think it is fair or balanced to bag them...it's all good for people in general to be skeptics, but its not constructive or even educational unless someone posts the things they have missed...if no one can come up with a list of how they didn't innovate, then they can't be labelled non innovators...

This isn't specifically aimed at u nino, not at all, it's for anyone who bags stern to rise to the occasion and show anyone and everyone how easy it is to run a pinball company from a computer desk a million miles away by telling n sharing what stern could have done...and wifi is good to incl as a innovation etc, but u have to also understand they couldn't do it thirteen yrs ago, cause wifi etc is only been around a very short time etc..so any innovation ideas also have to be proposed using the date of design or when it was invented into the equation...

Seems to me that stern isn't lacking in innovation at all then til I see the lists of what was supposedly missing that was so easy for us keyboard designers to include which no one has so far...challenge is still up for anyone to innovate away with that huge non existent list.lol.  People shod be happy for all the good stern have done versus always saying what they haven't done without listing what ideas weren't included....people will miss stern a lot if they were to close, and its only when it's gone do u realize just what u had.....I get pissed when people bag stern, especially when I know they couldn't have done better than stern......and I wonder if any of the stern knockers ever emailed stern some constructive ideas and any better ideas..I know I have, and they wrote straight back n thanked me for it...

I am passionate about building pinball up, not knocking it down, cause these days it seems everyone is a knocker. I could be wrong...I am sure every person at stern works their ass off to try n please us pinheads, they must feel like crap when they read all the critics posts saying they could have done much better..then stern asks how, and no one can give them a example.....that must be frustrating to say the least.lol

Nothing wrong with a healthy debate.

[pinsanity]

Personally, unless someone can come up with the things that stern should have done, I don't think it is fair or balanced to bag them...it's all good for people in general to be skeptics, but its not constructive or even educational unless someone posts the things they have missed...if no one can come up with a list of how they didn't innovate, then they can't be labelled non innovators...

You see Cavey, Stern just don't innovate......

[Caveoftreasures]

I just pissed my pants I laughed so dam hard.....

A mod for people without arms, of course  

Wow...he watches too much Star Trek.

A poster child for someone u don't admit to knowing....he was just hired by JJP.
He is the HEAD of design over there (boom boom)...can it get any worse....

[GORGAR 1]

I suppose at the end if the day Stern is still in business while others are not, they most likely knew that innovation probably won't sell anymore wooden boxes for 7k so they stuck to a proven idea and its worked like it or not,  I also think that large LCD screens isn't the answer but small LCD the same size as today's DMD may work but no matter how much innovation there is selling pinballs to homes is a tough market. Top popular titles lately has put some money in the bank for stern so hopefully there with us for a few more years.

Peter

[Retropin]

Cavey... dont take it on board mate... its not Stern bashing as you call it, its a general impression and boredom with Sterns M.O. Since ACDC came out Stern owners have become very sensitive people and they seem to take the " im not that enthused about it actually" posts with greater relevance than the " if it had tits it would be perfect" posts.
Its difficult to list whats NOT been done but seeing as you have thrown down the gauntlet, ill try to rise to the challenge somewhat.

Heres what Stern could have done .

Wi Fi ( been around for a good few years, its even free in McDonalds and is the way online gaming works. For Stern to ignore this is sheer stupidity.. quite obvious its the way the world is going and it was up to JJP to bring it to the fore)

LCD... reasons have already been flogged out but it could also incorporate touch screen etc.

EL vinyl.. saw this some 15 years ago... its been put onto beer taps, V8 car bonnets etc and looks sensational.... maybe used for certain plastics?

Headphone jack.

RGB lighting

MP3 programmable sound

Isolated components like bumpers, slings etc ( see what Mike Homepin is doing...EASY maintenance).


Now im not saying that Stern had to embrace any of the few things above but the fact that they never even really made any effort is what sticks out about Stern.

Heres what they did instead.

Plastic aprons
Low res cabinet graphics
wobbly toys
Mick Jagger moving across the Pf ( how anyone thought that was a good idea is beyond me).


But its not all bad i guess.... i DO like the mini PFs on games like SHREK. BTDK drew me in and i thought it was a good game until i realised its impossible to lose the ball between the flippers and after 20 mins i gave the game away to the little kid watching. Im still wondering why the windows to a lower PF are still the same shape as they were fro Black Hole and Haunted House... it was ugly then and still is now.... it could be ANY shape!

Many many things have been tried in pinball that never became mainstream and its what makes certain era's or titles great.
The backglasses in Black Hole.... Empire Strikes Back ... Spirit.
Zipper Flippers
Power Ball on TZ ( wether you like it or not... at least its something a little different)
Banana flippers
Magna save

etc etc etc... none of which became the norm for pinball but it shows manufaturers throwing ideas out there to create interest and see what sticks.
Stern just dont seem to do this and thats the point us " bashers" are making

[Strangeways]

Stern in 2000 tried the concept of linking games to other machines once before with their prototype 'Golden Cue'. Never eventuated.

Since then the only piece of innovation that is worthy of the title 'innovation'; Stewies Playfield from Family Guy.
It was novel, it was perfect for the theme, worked very well and well constructed. But again it is not a progression for others to follow, I thought it was different and innovative for that title alone.

A concept innovated by Bally Williams in 1997 with NBA Fastbreak.

The "Stewie's Playfield" concept was worth following up. I'm sure Gottlieb thought it was a good idea on Haunted House.

[Cow Corner]

Just innovate me a Avengers Stern, I couldn't care less about wifi and other shit just don't f**k this game up!

[Strangeways]

Stern are doing good things with pinball. The idea that I'm a "Stern basher" is simply untrue and is playing the man and not the ball. I've pointed this out or more than one occasion.

Can anyone list what stern didnt innovate since 1999 is the better question.

They didn't innovate pinball from 1999 to today. It is impossible to list something that does not exist. Stern have not innovated anything of note since 1999. I'm still waiting for one innovation. Maybe USB firmware updates ?

I am passionate about building pinball up, not knocking it down, cause these days it seems everyone is a knocker. I could be wrong...I am sure every person at stern works their ass off to try n please us pinheads, they must feel like crap when they read all the critics posts saying they could have done much better..then stern asks how, and no one can give them a example.....that must be frustrating to say the least.lol

We are ALL passionate about this. I'm merely stating what I believe to be complacency on Stern's behalf. I guess if the only cars produced were Fords, we would have no point of reference. Ford dictate the level of quality and the direction of the product. Stern have churned out the same product since 1999. I'm glad they are still around and I would LOVE to own a NIB Stern - but nothing grabs me as interesting (yet). It is interesting that this debate was started because of WOZ and JJP's innovative ideas - The large LCD - Which incidentally, I don't like (the size is too big).. The new kid on the block brings innovation to the table, and there is no doubt Stern are under pressure.

Critics - EVERY single product released on the market has critics. What's Stern's problem was that it didn't listen to critics. It just churned out title after title. ONLY recently have they recognized the home market is now their target market. It is only within the last 12 months that they have employed designers that made successful games in the 90's. Two years ago they were cutting down the features of games to save costs.

I think they finally listened to critics and that's what has been the turnaround for them. AC/DC is the best pin released in 20 years. But critics were demanding Stern release a music pin (AC/DC, KISS, Metallica) 5 years ago, but they didn't listen, and then they brought out Rolling Stones (the biggest flop in 20 years).

[Extra Ball]

Pinball is all about what happens when you push the flipper button. LCD screen in WOZ adds nothing to gameplay. RFM was real innovation, it wasnt a flop, but it came too late! We have seen no real innovation since, and JJP offers none either. Yes it's wonderful that there are new makers coming onto the scene, it's the juice pinball needs to advance. What interests me, is an LCD as the playfield, a mix of virtual pin/real pin, with a real ball, and a changing playfield as you progress into the game. That in my mind, will be the innovation that takes pinball to the next step.

[Retropin]

Pinball is all about what happens when you push the flipper button. LCD screen in WOZ adds nothing to gameplay. RFM was real innovation, it wasnt a flop, but it came too late! We have seen no real innovation since, and JJP offers none either. Yes it's wonderful that there are new makers coming onto the scene, it's the juice pinball needs to advance. What interests me, is an LCD as the playfield, a mix of virtual pin/real pin, with a real ball, and a changing playfield as you progress into the game. That in my mind, will be the innovation that takes pinball to the next step.

Yup! Touch screen playfields that track the ball and give graphics when a sling is hit etc... hang on.. isnt someone doing just that?

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinballnewscom-has-an-update-for-heighway-pinballs-circes-animal-house

[Caveoftreasures]

For the record, Nino is not a Stern basher and I have not, and am not saying that at all, otherwise I would have stated that clearly...and i am not saying that because you are a moderator, but because its true..if anything Nino has been even handed with his feedback about Stern, and hasnt been unduly negative at all. So I dont want u thinking this debate/difference of opinion is pointed at you specifically Nino, which its definately not, its just me being the devils advocate and defending/arguing passionately for Sterns achievements versus against. If I have made u feel singled out, I sincerely apologise matey cause its not what i was intending, and keeping u n Nick from wanting to throw out the peace pipe is not what i want at all..lol   Nino is not a stern basher.. but i do want to see you doing the Stern factory tour and I am buying u a Stern shirt for Xmas.lol

And even if anyone is a stern knocker or basher, its not a crime, merely a opinion which can only help a healthy debate to get the juices and ideas flowing...which all posters have....but it does irk me, cause AC/DC and X Men have brought alot of joy to my collection so to speak, and everytime Stern cops criticism without new ideas also put up to help, I think Stern loses sales and its a shame that pin players or collectors might be swayed and not by one of the recent most excellent titles...

yes, the cost cutting days were stupid, and i remember posting that at the time, cause Gary diod a talk to his dealers at a conference and he opened up to the 100 plus strong crowd with astatement like "you guys are not going to like the changes we are implementing" which I thought at the time was commercial suicide from a business owners point of view. Not only was it unneccessary, but it achieved nothing and alienated/lost more market and sales...those days are over with AC/DC and X Men, and Avengers shld follow suit...

What i dont want to see is the base DNA of pinball change too much at all, cause then its not pinball anymore...

Does anyone like the current format and style of games like the overall base design of the modern Stern pinny like AC/DC n X Men etc..forget the subject matter, but I thought that base design and style is what pinball really is...sure, add a few leds or RBG, maybe a small LCD with movie like graphics, but how far do u go before its like Pin2000, which to me, was just too much of a hybrid...maybe a hybrid design every 5 or 10, but not every machine or that base DNA changes and we lose what we have come to love n enjoy...JJP might be great for pinball, but if these things start to morph into machines that are no longer pure pinball, its all over red rover, and JJP might be the beginning of the end, versus the new era...food for thought.

P.S - that LCD digitised playfield idea/design etc, I think is an absolute shocker, an abomination...u might as well just buy a computer game and be done with it, its like a blow up doll, far from the real thing...so far infact, could u even call that pinball, more like simulated pinball....yuk yuk yuk..its like having a robot for a wife..its just not the same or even close...cyborg pinball versus the game we love..that will be the end of pinball if everyone goes that way.lol   Then the pinball machines might take over like Terminators,lol  

Add porno LCD graphics to that virtual pinball idea and u might change some peoples minds...   only the young people ofcourse, I mean us old farts wouldnt buy pinballs with big tits on it would we....  

[Extra Ball]

Pinball is all about what happens when you push the flipper button. LCD screen in WOZ adds nothing to gameplay. RFM was real innovation, it wasnt a flop, but it came too late! We have seen no real innovation since, and JJP offers none either. Yes it's wonderful that there are new makers coming onto the scene, it's the juice pinball needs to advance. What interests me, is an LCD as the playfield, a mix of virtual pin/real pin, with a real ball, and a changing playfield as you progress into the game. That in my mind, will be the innovation that takes pinball to the next step.

Yup! Touch screen playfields that track the ball and give graphics when a sling is hit etc... hang on.. isnt someone doing just that?

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinballnewscom-has-an-update-for-heighway-pinballs-circes-animal-house

that's innovation that would leave Stern behind, allthough traditionally they soon follow suit

[Strangeways]

For the record, Nino is not a Stern basher and I have not, and am not saying that at all, otherwise I would have stated that clearly...and i am not saying that because you are a moderator, but because its true..if anything Nino has been even handed with his feedback about Stern, and hasnt been unduly negative at all. So I dont want u thinking this debate/difference of opinion is pointed at you specifically Nino, which its definately not, its just me being the devils advocate and defending/arguing passionately for Sterns achievements versus against. If I have made u feel singled out, I sincerely apologise matey cause its not what i was intending, and keeping u n Nick from wanting to throw out the peace pipe is not what i want at all..lol   Nino is not a stern basher.. but i do want to see you doing the Stern factory tour and I am buying u a Stern shirt for Xmas.lol

And even if anyone is a stern knocker or basher, its not a crime, merely a opinion which can only help a healthy debate to get the juices and ideas flowing...which all posters have....but it does irk me, cause AC/DC and X Men have brought alot of joy to my collection so to speak, and everytime Stern cops criticism without new ideas also put up to help, I think Stern loses sales and its a shame that pin players or collectors might be swayed and not by one of the recent most excellent titles...

yes, the cost cutting days were stupid, and i remember posting that at the time, cause Gary diod a talk to his dealers at a conference and he opened up to the 100 plus strong crowd with astatement like "you guys are not going to like the changes we are implementing" which I thought at the time was commercial suicide from a business owners point of view. Not only was it unneccessary, but it achieved nothing and alienated/lost more market and sales...those days are over with AC/DC and X Men, and Avengers shld follow suit...

What i dont want to see is the base DNA of pinball change too much at all, cause then its not pinball anymore...

Does anyone like the current format and style of games like the overall base design of the modern Stern pinny like AC/DC n X Men etc..forget the subject matter, but I thought that base design and style is what pinball really is...sure, add a few leds or RBG, maybe a small LCD with movie like graphics, but how far do u go before its like Pin2000, which to me, was just too much of a hybrid...maybe a hybrid design every 5 or 10, but not every machine or that base DNA changes and we lose what we have come to love n enjoy...JJP might be great for pinball, but if these things start to morph into machines that are no longer pure pinball, its all over red rover, and JJP might be the beginning of the end, versus the new era...food for thought.

P.S - that LCD digitised playfield idea/design etc, I think is an absolute shocker, an abomination...u might as well just buy a computer game and be done with it, its like a blow up doll, far from the real thing...so far infact, could u even call that pinball, more like simulated pinball....yuk yuk yuk..its like having a robot for a wife..its just not the same or even close...cyborg pinball versus the game we love..that will be the end of pinball if everyone goes that way.lol   Then the pinball machines might take over like Terminators,lol  

Add porno LCD graphics to that virtual pinball idea and u might change some peoples minds...   only the young people ofcourse, I mean us old farts wouldnt buy pinballs with big tits on it would we....  

 

All good Brett. I will be assisting Leo from Cashbox this weekend for the Stern AC/DC comp - I have no problems promoting Stern or JJP. Whoever remakes a KISS pinball will have my money, that's for sure