The Aussie Pinball Arcade
Aussie Pinball Forums => General Discussion => General Pinball Discussion => Topic started by: Caveoftreasures on April 18, 2010, 03:42:46 PM
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hi , a quick question.
HAVE U HAVE CONVERTED A PIN TO LED'S ?
did it look the bomb. was it worth it ? did it detract from the original look being too bright and make the ball too hard to see. what do you think.
i was considering just changing all the GI lights to white ones-led's, and all the bulbs under the playfield to white led as well. given that the led is so much brighter, i dont see the need to specifically go for a red led under a red insert? SAME TO THE BACKBOX, ALL GOES TO WHITE led'S.
does that make sense ? surely the brightness of the LED will be enough, what do u think.
(so what i guess i am saying, is that using LEDS in place of bulbs, because they are so much brighter being white light, shld make the colours come alive without having to go to different colours.
what advice you got for me. WHAT STYLE LENS TO USE, FLAT , CONCAVE, wtf, WHICH ONES DO I USE ? !@# !@# !@# !@# !@# !@#
SHOULD I USE FROSTED FOR GI, OR NOT FROSTED. !@#
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Played around with some, but didn't like the results much - too "on and off" and odd looking for general application. Did use them and leave them in the AFM mothership - the 89 in there blows constantly from the ship being bashed, and an array looks sensational in there. We used a lot of LEDs in Coconut Island (for ease - the PS 5volts was used) but too dim overall. I'm not a fan mostly, although I have seen some good looking efforts.
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I have used some LEDs, but I have not converted a whole game to them
I am usually wanting to change the color scheme on the game, ie Green lights in the Goblin area on Spiderman
I have also used LEDs under colored inserts on the Sterns, Blue LEDs really make the blue insets pop out at you
The problem with using them on Spiderman is that some of the insert lamps are supposed to glow with different intencities, the more times you defete the bad guys the brighter the lamp glows
To dim lights a pinball machine is actually turning the lamp on and off quickly, the quicker the switching the brighter it glows
This is fine with bulbs, as the nature of bulbs (warming up, cooling down) means you do not notice the switching
With LEDs they tend to strobe, (because a LED is either ON or OFF) which can be annoying
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Yes - I have converted a lot of bulbs in my 4 games to LED's.
I am a BIG Led Fan - but NOT for Gi.
I have NOT done a WHOLE game in LED's but I have done a lot of the coloured inserts.
Like EB, I have done most of Fish Tales - looks GREAT.
Funhouse I used LED's selectively and I feel looks bloody good, same with WH20 - in both these games I also ADDED some extra blue LEDs around the place for a blue 'glow effect'.
CFTBL - used sparingly and selectively under inserts.
I have tried , experimented and used LED's in GI sections on NONE of my games - I dont like it at all for Gi ( except for ONE spot on the FH machine where the incandescent was doing my right eye in - LOL).
The complexity of trying to answer "what bulbs do I use where / what styles " - is too hard to answer, I had the same question myself at the beginning and ended up guessing my way through it all with 3 or 4 seperate Cointaker orders over a period of months in order to get the games 'right'.
As one example - I have found that where a yellow might look disastrous on one game , it looks quite good on another, this example can be repeated with colours, insert sizes on all my games and THATS why I had to order and order and keep 'knocking colours out' before I was eventually happy.
If you own any of the titles I own , I am more than happy to raise the hood and write a list of what I did.
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Wotto has done some of the best LED work I have seen. My FT is 95% LEDs, really just the flashers to change, and they will be eventually. Wideangle whites worked fine in the BG, but will add that incandescent disperses light better, the LEDs dont like to cover the whole translite. LEDs in slingshot/flipper area is no-no for me (distracting). SP is the next job.
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I have done a few games with full leds.
I try to match the colour of the insert to the colour of the led as sometimes the white led can change the look and colour of the insert.
I have only used wide angles for GI and CI and in MO with success.
I have had many collectors come through who have had little to no interest in leds but once they saw my pins were totally converted.
It does take some time to adjust jumping from a game with led lighting to incandescent lighting. Everything is quite bright and you really need to focus.
Wait and see the full conversion pics of the STTNG Caveman...You will be swayed! *)*
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Ive only changed 4 inserts to leds On CFTBL i turned some boring clear into a bright green and i think they look shit hot ^^^
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Ive only changed 4 inserts to leds On CFTBL i turned some boring clear into a bright green and i think they look shit hot ^^^
Its only the beginning Daniel! *)*
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my reasoning about asking about LED's versus standard bulbs is this -
I want to see a game shopped, looking as good as i can get it, close to as new like when the game was first released brand new. We all know that some of our machines will all look in really great condition, not new, cause they can be 2 or 5 or 10 or whatever years old, but as good as we can get them, like new because we clean n polish n refresh legs n bolts n all the things we can do, plastics etc.
So when i replace every bulb on a game, and every rubber and i stand back, I say to myself
"thats what that pinball looked like when the manufacturer first released it, or thats what the guy who first played it saw". Nostalgic lets say.
But i am wondering when u mess around with LED's, does it show something that it was never designed or meant to look like ? and as a collector, that can be like putting a holden bonnet on a ford. !@#
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my reasoning about asking about LED's versus standard bulbs is this -
I want to see a game shopped, looking as good as i can get it, close to as new like when the game was first released brand new. We all know that some of our machines will all look in really great condition, not new, cause they can be 2 or 5 or 10 or whatever years old, but as good as we can get them, like new because we clean n polish n refresh legs n bolts n all the things we can do, plastics etc.
So when i replace every bulb on a game, and every rubber and i stand back, I say to myself
"thats what that pinball looked like when the manufacturer first released it, or thats what the guy who first played it saw". Nostalgic lets say.
But i am wondering when u mess around with LED's, does it show something that it was never designed or meant to look like ? and as a collector, that can be like putting a holden bonnet on a ford. !@#
nope, your overthinking again Brett
LEDs look unreal, but yes they make it look different.
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My answer is simple:
(1) If there is an area which is too dull or requires highlighting LEDs are the shot.
For example - Theatre of Magic's twin upper rollover lane inserts are a notoriously dull green. Despite the clever mirror it's hard to see which lane is lit. Green LEDs solved the problem beautifully. Same applied to TOM's EB and Tiger Saw MB inserts. What a difference. I won't put any other LEDs in this machine now.
(2) If you want to reduce current draw or heat generation for any reason e.g. lit toppers with extra lamps pulling more juice, this can be compensated for by using LEDs.
Generally I find fully ledded machines too gaudy (except under flouro light) and as mentioned above, they can be distracting. Judicious use of LEDs can be fantastic, but it's all inthe eye of the beholder I reckon.
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well, it seems then that the general consensus is
1. not really for GI.
2. add to a few dull areas
3. every machine is going to have different needs, trial n error
4. a few well placed LED's is probably the go, versus adding many. (although reds n greens everywhere on a fishtales does look great i am told)
We need more before and after photos or videos, that would really be the best. Maybe post a few videos guys, espescially those who have done alot of led's to a machine. ^^^ ^^^ ^^^
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Ive got a kit coming from the US for my JP plus a few extras so i can experiment a bit.
May be a week or two but i'll gladly add some before/after pics for ya brett.
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Heres a pic of my Indy that i've kitted out with Homepin's DIY leds. When the pic was taken, most of the left side has been done and none of the right.
You can see the greens (with green LEDs) look awesome (particularly on the A and D standups) as well as red LEDs under the mode lights.
With it all done, i reckon it makes it a bit more exciting - particularly in multiball or a mode where all the lights flash.
Another machine that i think it made a huge difference to is Roadshow
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We need more before and after photos or videos, that would really be the best. Maybe post a few videos guys, espescially those who have done alot of led's to a machine. ^^^ ^^^ ^^^
Funny you say this , as I was going to add to this thread last night that you REALLY need to see LED games in the flesh because photo's do these lights NO justice what-so-ever.
I have tried and tried and CANNOT get a photo that represents the ‘real-life’ look of ANY of my games after adding LED’s ^&(
It’s a shame because they look so good in real life yet look really ‘glowy’ in images !!!
If you are ever in the Sydney area - feel free to come and see my games *%*
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Brett I did all the inserts in my Twister and it looks 100% better/only thing is some LED's glow alittle when the insert light isn't on if you know what I mean. But having said that it made a hugh improvement I even put them in the Multiball canister.
Peter
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LEDs are no good for GI - the main reason is that they are too directional and for GI you need a more generous spread of light. The opposite is true of inserts however where ideally the light is more directional or focused onto the insert. LEDs can bring out the 'true' colour of an insert. The pic below shows the lower section of my BSD before and after using LEDs. I never realised that the inserts were in fact purple! The lamps made the inserts look red because the lamp is actually a bit yellow itself. Using white LEDs the true insert colour can be seen. Another pic shows the insert in question looking from the bottom of the PF up into natural light.
The last pic is a perfect example of using LEDs to highlight a feature. I have used 10mm LEDs behind the headlights in the backbox of Getaway HSII and the difference is really amazing. the lamps light up the entire headlight area but the LEDs correct this with light axactly where you need it.
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/before_after.jpg)
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/insert.jpg)
(http://www.homepin.com/pics/getawayheadlights.jpg)
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LEDs are something I've shown limited interest in as I don't believe they have a place in EMs and SS machines. They have a better fit in DMDs. I'm always interested in new developments in Pinball, and this is a perfect example of using something to improve and enhance the appearance of a machine and also reduce the heat and power. Wotto is right, pictures don't do justice.. I saw Marco's ST TNG and it changed my opinion on the machine. With LEDs is simply looks more "3D". Watching the ball buzz around and the reflection of the LEDs on the ball changes the playing experience. The only way I can describe the visual aspect is that it gives the player a more "3D" experience. Hard to describe, but I really liked it.
I will experiment with LEDs on my CV and ToM - I think these two games will simply look awesome !
I think there is a LOT of trial and error with placement - and I think there is scope for a "standard" for placement for each machine.
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I think there is a LOT of trial and error with placement - and I think there is scope for a "standard" for placement for each machine.
Yep – correct there Nino – placement is a LOT of trial and error.
Placement – I have put LED’s in certain places on games, then tried another colour in that spot, then tried a different style of lens ( narrow, wide, ablaze3 ) over and over again until it looks best for the game - I have even had some globes in games for a week or so, thought I liked em and then ended up changing or removing them.
- it’s kind of also a personal thing.
One very small example of how these are ‘personal’ is that when I had my TOTAN I put WHITE Led’s under the BAZAAR inserts, to me they were just OK and were better than the ‘yellowy’ incandescant’s BUT I was never overly wrapped in the look of these particular inserts – then, when the game was at Pauls place and he had a meet, quite a few guys commented on how good the BAZAAR Led’s looked
These days – LED’s are so cheap that you can afford to buy quite a few to experiment with – I mean if you spend $200.00 these days , you can buy about 200 – 250 globes, in days gone by that same amount would have bought you 40 globes.
And Nino – I believe TOM could look amazing with LED’s
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The colour enhancement that LED allows is pretty evident.. ive seen them in STNG and it does look bloody great!!
The notion of less current draw is an interesting one though. The reduced current draw is certainly not at your 240V wall socket where you pay your bills from. The power supply in pinballs is still a straight AC transformer. Its output is determined by the winding ratio between secondary and primary.
In other words, once you apply 240V across the primary winding the secondary will pump out the same power no matter what.
You do draw less current by using LED, but the transformer does not produce less current.. what is not used in the circuit is then lost in the form of heat in the windings, so you in fact cause your transformer to run warmer.
We find this all the time in the neon industry... the transformers should be loaded at 80% of their 30mA output limit. Under this amount and you run your load harder causing a loss of time that the neon will run as the electrode shells run warm, the transformer runs hot also. Anything over this 80% limit and you attempt to draw too much current and run your transformer hard causing loss of life in that.
Straight AC transformers are designed to work within a load limit... LED in your machine will not save you any $$$'s - you have to change your transformer to do that. It is also feasible that if using ALL led you will burn your transformer out... but this is theorising and i cannot of course prove this.
Now... were your power supply a switch mode type, then yes.. it churns out what is required dependant on load... but your AC winding transformer will always convert X to Y no matter what you do, unless you change the winding ratios
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LEDs are no good for GI - the main reason is that they are too directional and for GI you need a more generous spread of light.
This criticism and that the leds are too white is often made. I wonder exactly which leds people have used - they all seem to be lumped under the same description as "leds", but there is quite a variety. I see that cointaker have some 170° warm white ones that I've wondered how they'd go behind a BG or big bit of plastic. I like the idea of reducing heat on BG.
I wonder if a led controller to turn them down a bit might help - not that easy to do as these normally control leds in series strings, whereas pins use parallel strings for GI. I also wonder if a sheet of diffuser between leds and backglass might help, maybe something as simple as tracing paper. I've also heard, maybe on this site, of people sanding the led surface to difuse it some more.
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I am one of those KISS (keep it simple stupid) sort of guys. And Lazy, so the following LED kits with maps are very appealing. Check them out !
There is a guy in Germany, who sells on ebay, a "set" of LED's per machine. He sends you a whack of LED"s and a large playfield placement map and tells u which colour n which style of LED to put where. He has done this style of kit for 2 x dozen machines. All the well known, popular titles. This is the part where we are lazy, and he has bothered to make a "placement map" that has helped him sell a whack of LED kits. What we need are a list of our own placement maps.
check out his site anyway below
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tales-Of-The-Arabian-Nights-pinball-Flipper-LED-KIT_W0QQitemZ190345880502QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutomaten?hash=item2c517fa3b6
But, i dont like promoting anyone overseas and really only like promoting aussie companies like Mark C. I know some people have used cointaker in the USA for Led's, but since Mark has now got them, i am assuming there is no need to go overseas. !@# Maybe our aussie sellers need to make these placement maps.
They will sell LED kits for sure i reckon. What say you other members ? !!
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All Aussie suppliers should know by now that if they are price competitive then money will stay here in Oz and happily make its way into their pockets – this is an obvious statement I know , for ANY product.
However - in relation to LED globes “a good range of product” is also vitally important, I need to go to ONE place that can provide a good solid range of LED globes in all colours and lens choices.
LED maps would be a good ‘added’ way for a supplier to help the hobbyist and help sell his globes more easily but I assume suppliers like Mark & other parts suppliers that sells heaps of general pinball parts could not find the time to test globes in games to see what looks best where and then make up maps etc – Mark ?
It takes quite a while to work out the best way for ONE game to look, let alone numerous games ……but it is a decent idea for a retailer if they want to provide that little bit of ‘extra’ quality service above & beyond for their potential customers.
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In the end LEDS are personal preference and as Nino and Wotto have mentioned a lot of trial and error.
I have found my likes... &&
The only 2 colours that do not do much for me are yellow and orange. They just don't pop.
AS for GI...they are great...wide angles for me are perfect. No direct beam instead a widespread hue of light.
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I think the advantage of 'reduced current draw' is NOT in relation to power bills or using less mains power but more to do with less strain on the connectors and driver circuits in the machine. This would certainly be the case should you replace even half a dozen lamps with LEDs - the current draw on the circuitry/transistors/triacs and connectors would be a lot less (I'm too lazy to calculate an example).
The colour enhancement that LED allows is pretty evident.. ive seen them in STNG and it does look bloody great!!
The notion of less current draw is an interesting one though. The reduced current draw is certainly not at your 240V wall socket where you pay your bills from. The power supply in pinballs is still a straight AC transformer. Its output is determined by the winding ratio between secondary and primary.
In other words, once you apply 240V across the primary winding the secondary will pump out the same power no matter what.
You do draw less current by using LED, but the transformer does not produce less current.. what is not used in the circuit is then lost in the form of heat in the windings, so you in fact cause your transformer to run warmer.
We find this all the time in the neon industry... the transformers should be loaded at 80% of their 30mA output limit. Under this amount and you run your load harder causing a loss of time that the neon will run as the electrode shells run warm, the transformer runs hot also. Anything over this 80% limit and you attempt to draw too much current and run your transformer hard causing loss of life in that.
Straight AC transformers are designed to work within a load limit... LED in your machine will not save you any $$$'s - you have to change your transformer to do that. It is also feasible that if using ALL led you will burn your transformer out... but this is theorising and i cannot of course prove this.
Now... were your power supply a switch mode type, then yes.. it churns out what is required dependant on load... but your AC winding transformer will always convert X to Y no matter what you do, unless you change the winding ratios
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the orange LEDs I made-up were brilliant, but yep, yellows do jack (use clears)
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quote from Pinfan -"AS for GI...they are great...wide angles for me are perfect. No direct beam instead a widespread hue of light".
which ones on Marks website would these be ?
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quote from Pinfan -"AS for GI...they are great...wide angles for me are perfect. No direct beam instead a widespread hue of light".
which ones on Marks website would these be ?
They don't exist - he's pulling your left one!!!!
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These are the ones i use, only they are not from Mark but from COINTAKER.
They are practically the same.
http://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/index.php?crn=211&rn=2319&action=show_detail
http://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/index.php?crn=211&rn=2295&action=show_detail
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thanks Marco. ^^^ ^^^ ^^^
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Here's a link to an old thread where I put LED's through my DE Star Wars Brett.
http://aussiepinball.com/index.php?topic=3478.msg52728#msg52728
For the GI I used the frosted led's . I find they spread the light more than non-frosted led's and look fantastic .
I have since done my IJ all with led's with similar results.
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The colour enhancement that LED allows is pretty evident.. ive seen them in STNG and it does look bloody great!!
The notion of less current draw is an interesting one though. The reduced current draw is certainly not at your 240V wall socket where you pay your bills from. The power supply in pinballs is still a straight AC transformer. Its output is determined by the winding ratio between secondary and primary.
In other words, once you apply 240V across the primary winding the secondary will pump out the same power no matter what.
You do draw less current by using LED, but the transformer does not produce less current.. what is not used in the circuit is then lost in the form of heat in the windings, so you in fact cause your transformer to run warmer.
We find this all the time in the neon industry... the transformers should be loaded at 80% of their 30mA output limit. Under this amount and you run your load harder causing a loss of time that the neon will run as the electrode shells run warm, the transformer runs hot also. Anything over this 80% limit and you attempt to draw too much current and run your transformer hard causing loss of life in that.
Straight AC transformers are designed to work within a load limit... LED in your machine will not save you any $$$'s - you have to change your transformer to do that. It is also feasible that if using ALL led you will burn your transformer out... but this is theorising and i cannot of course prove this.
Now... were your power supply a switch mode type, then yes.. it churns out what is required dependant on load... but your AC winding transformer will always convert X to Y no matter what you do, unless you change the winding ratios
the comment about the heat may be true with neon transformers (high voltage secondary winding) but this is not the case with a transformer that has a secondary winding lower than its primary winding.
the later transformer will draw x milliamps when there is no load but the more you load the secondary winding the more current the primary windings will draw from the 240v ac supply.
I just set up a transformer infront of 2 people (1 from this forum) with an amp meter in series with the primary side. With no load the primary side was drawing 250ma, as soon as i put a 50watt lamp on the secondary side the current draw on the primary side rose sharply to 750ma then dropped back to 640ma. as soon as i disconnected the 50watt lamp from the secondary side the current on the primary dropped back down to 250ma.
the transformer that was used for the test had a secondary winding rated at 24Volts, and the maximum load it can take is on the scondary is 27 amp (around 648 watts)
with a wire wound transformer (that has a lower secondary voltage than the primary) the more you draw on the secondary the more you draw on the primary.
The more current you draw the hotter the transformer will run.
My old boss at hawko will back me up on this. Hawko manufactures there own wire wound transformers. They buy the E & I pieces, copper wire, & spools. Then they start by winding the thin primary winding, next the thicker secondary winding is wound on (the higher the va the thicker the secondary winding). the E & I pieces are then put on the spool, then it is dipped in isonol. it is then baked in an oven for about 6 hours to dry the isonol. And last, the terminal blocks and thermal circuit breaker is fitted to the transformer.
if need be i can video the test and up load to youtube
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LEDs are no good for GI - the main reason is that they are too directional and for GI you need a more generous spread of light.
This criticism and that the leds are too white is often made. I wonder exactly which leds people have used - they all seem to be lumped under the same de******ion as "leds", but there is quite a variety. I see that cointaker have some 170° warm white ones that I've wondered how they'd go behind a BG or big bit of plastic. I like the idea of reducing heat on BG.
I wonder if a led controller to turn them down a bit might help - not that easy to do as these normally control leds in series strings, whereas pins use parallel strings for GI. I also wonder if a sheet of diffuser between leds and backglass might help, maybe something as simple as tracing paper. I've also heard, maybe on this site, of people sanding the led surface to difuse it some more.
It is possable to make a unit to adjust the brightness of the leds, I wonder how many people would be interested in buying them if someone made a "plug and Play" type of dimmer with a trimpot you can turn to change the brightness?
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So what you are trying to say Andrew, is that a pinball machine that is plugged into a wall, with 100 normal bulbs, uses alot more power than a machine using only LED's.
Therefore, if u were to put the machine in a test mode, say with all bulbs flashing, you could measure the consumption.
Then, you could measure the same draw, with the same machine that has only LED's and work out the difference.
So led's will save on power, but overall, only power usage on the lighting circuit which is only a part of the overall power consumption.
** We might kit out 1 x star trek next gen with only LED's, then kit out my other STNG with the std bulbs, and measure the difference. !
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LEDs are no good for GI - the main reason is that they are too directional and for GI you need a more generous spread of light.
This criticism and that the leds are too white is often made. I wonder exactly which leds people have used - they all seem to be lumped under the same de******ion as "leds", but there is quite a variety. I see that cointaker have some 170° warm white ones that I've wondered how they'd go behind a BG or big bit of plastic. I like the idea of reducing heat on BG.
I wonder if a led controller to turn them down a bit might help - not that easy to do as these normally control leds in series strings, whereas pins use parallel strings for GI. I also wonder if a sheet of diffuser between leds and backglass might help, maybe something as simple as tracing paper. I've also heard, maybe on this site, of people sanding the led surface to difuse it some more.
I wonder how many people would be interested in buying them if someone made a "plug and Play" type of dimmer with a trimpot you can turn to change the brightness?
me for starters
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So what you are trying to say Andrew, is that a pinball machine that is plugged into a wall, with 100 normal bulbs, uses alot more power than a machine using only LED's.
Therefore, if u were to put the machine in a test mode, say with all bulbs flashing, you could measure the consumption.
Then, you could measure the same draw, with the same machine that has only LED's and work out the difference.
So led's will save on power, but overall, only power usage on the lighting circuit which is only a part of the overall power consumption.
** We might kit out 1 x star trek next gen with only LED's, then kit out my other STNG with the std bulbs, and measure the difference. !
correct
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It is possable to make a unit to adjust the brightness of the leds, I wonder how many people would be interested in buying them if someone made a "plug and Play" type of dimmer with a trimpot you can turn to change the brightness?
It is posible to make led controllers and they do exist. Buckpuck are good examples but there are heaps of cheaper alternatives - look at Jaycar for a few and Deal Extreme for many examples. BUT you would need modifications to work in a pin. Led brightness is regulated by current and that's how theses controllers work. To get them all the same current you want to pass the same current thru each led - this is done by arranging them in series. Pins arrange GI in parallel, so you'd have to rejig the wiring, could be done - but I'm not sure it would be worth the effort unless you were rebuilding the pin. If you did you could get some interesting effects as some of these controllers will flash, dim etc and could be controlled programatically by the pin or features of teh gameplay. A sort of modern take on Blackout but with more bells and whistles.
For a variety of other (fairly boring to most!) reasons, the Cointaker or Ablaze leds would not be the best to use in this setuip either, so you want to look at making your own bases etc - it all starts to look a bit like too much work.
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you only need to drop the voltage, when you drop the voltage the current will also drop.
you will need to make it so the voltage is adjustable from 6.3volts down to around 4.0 volts.
again i made the same type of variable power supply when i was working at hawko. the leds that are in there bud lighting works on 12volts with 1 led, or 2 leds in each fitting wired in series.
the led pcb would then plug in to a wedge socket, the wedge sockets were wired in parallel. The reason why they ran on 12 volts is because of the cable lengths.
any way some customers where complaining that the leds where to bright in some applications so I designed a regulated power supply with a trimpot (that controlled the voltage regulator) to dim the leds.
In saying that some led power supplies regulate the current as they are made to run x amount of leds as fire power suggested.
I still have a schematic diagram for the variable led power supply.
the led pcb for the wedge socket is pictured below, the pin configuration on the sockets used for these leds where different than the pinball 555 sockets, if you plug the pcb in the picture below onto a pinball socket it will just short the socket out. (the one pictured had a couple of wires soldered on to it at one stage, hence the untidy solder at the bottom)
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Hi Beaky, I read with interest your posts on electronics stuff and find them interesting and informative, but to be frank, and I mean absolutely no offence and cheerfully add that you should feel free to ignore me, I reckon your led techniques and understanding are far from current and good practise.
The Vf of a led is a function of the junction material, they are not a linear device as you are presenting them. Most have a Vf of about 2.3 volts, the technique you've described works in limited cases with small numbers of leds (in each group) between the supply voltages and where the sum of the led Vfs (in each group) roughly matches the supply output voltage.
(This is also the reason the Cointaker and Ablaze leds can be used in parallel wired strings - as everyone who buys them uses them - they have an inbuilt resistor that acts as a current limiter, or a primitive current regulator if you like, in each led. This is also the poor feature that I alluded to in my earlier post)
Good practice drives leds in series and regulates current to vary brightness. A pretty fair summary can be found here http://www.ledsmagazine.com/features/4/8/1
A string of leds like the GI in a pin with about 40 to 50 driven all in parallel (with no current limit resister as described above) will suffer variations in brightness amongst individual leds due to variations in junction temperatures and the thermal runaway that will result. This would be made worse if you tried to use different coloured ones. I strongly suspect driving it this way will lead to failures of those that operate higher up on the Vf v If curve. This will lead to rapid increase in junction temp, lower junction resistance, higher current flow and ultimately failure.
One technique people use is to place several strings of series leds in parallel to even out these differences - this is how I would go about it if I were trying to control strings of GI leds. Take a feed of about 25V, loose a few volts headroom for the regulator and then arrange, say, 4 or 5 parallel string each with ten series leds in them.
Anyway. I'm happy for us to disagree and we can each continue to drive our leds in ways that we like, each of us secure in the knowledge that the other is wrong! Good luck to you and your leds.
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may as well put a pic up of my homemades:
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/Gwind/diyleds002.jpg?t=1271755045)
I didnt take photos, but I was able to squeeze 2 LEDs into a socket like that. They work absolutely fine, have for 6 months so far. You cant see it, but a resistor is in there.
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Hi Beaky, I read with interest your posts on electronics stuff and find them interesting and informative, but to be frank, and I mean absolutely no offence and cheerfully add that you should feel free to ignore me, I reckon your led techniques and understanding are far from current and good practise.
The Vf of a led is a function of the junction material, they are not a linear device as you are presenting them. Most have a Vf of about 2.3 volts, the technique you've described works in limited cases with small numbers of leds (in each group) between the supply voltages and where the sum of the led Vfs (in each group) roughly matches the supply output voltage.
(This is also the reason the Cointaker and Ablaze leds can be used in parallel wired strings - as everyone who buys them uses them - they have an inbuilt resistor that acts as a current limiter, or a primitive current regulator if you like, in each led. This is also the poor feature that I alluded to in my earlier post)
Good practice drives leds in series and regulates current to vary brightness. A pretty fair summary can be found here http://www.ledsmagazine.com/features/4/8/1
A string of leds like the GI in a pin with about 40 to 50 driven all in parallel (with no current limit resister as described above) will suffer variations in brightness amongst individual leds due to variations in junction temperatures and the thermal runaway that will result. This would be made worse if you tried to use different coloured ones. I strongly suspect driving it this way will lead to failures of those that operate higher up on the Vf v If curve. This will lead to rapid increase in junction temp, lower junction resistance, higher current flow and ultimately failure.
One technique people use is to place several strings of series leds in parallel to even out these differences - this is how I would go about it if I were trying to control strings of GI leds. Take a feed of about 25V, loose a few volts headroom for the regulator and then arrange, say, 4 or 5 parallel string each with ten series leds in them.
Anyway. I'm happy for us to disagree and we can each continue to drive our leds in ways that we like, each of us secure in the knowledge that the other is wrong! Good luck to you and your leds.
no probs and please take no offence to my statements.
all of the leds that i have run on a string has their own resisitor on each pcb (if you look at the picture you will see 2 small resistors)
the reason why we ran them in paralllel is the machine that makes the strings was used originaly to make pixie light strings with incandecent lamps.
i agree that an led is not a linear device.
the led systems i made for the company i worked for where made between 2000 and 2005, the majority of the systems i made are still in service today.
some of the circuit boards i made for light fitings (pool lights, garden lights and various other low voltage light fittings) had up to 100 leds in them, in that instance the pcb had the leds wired in series and then wired in parallel, depending on the colour we would have 3 or 4 leds in series. (blue and white 3 in series and all other colours 4 in series).
so as far as using them in a pinball no one i know has rewired there G.I circuits in series.
and with my past experiences with leds they can be used in parallel with a resistors on each led and then be dimmed via dropping the voltage with out shortening the life of the led.
when you drop the voltage the current also will decrease.
If you have more than one set of leds running in series off a power supply and you dont use a resistor to current limit each set of leds and use a current limiting power supply you can run into some serious problems if 1 of the series go out.
I.E. if i had a power supply running 3 sets of leds that are running in series and each series of leds take 30ma, and you have your current limiting power supply set at 90ma (3 sets of leds @ 30ma = 90ma) and one of the series go out then you will be running 90ma into 2 sets of leds that only need 60ma, the 2 remaining sets of leds wont take long to die.
another problem you would have in the same scenario is 1 set of leds will have a lower foward voltage than the other 2 sets, it is very rare to have a identical foward drop in 2 leds.
in my opinion using a current limiting power supply to run more than 1 set of leds in series is not practical.
B.T.W. the power supply that i use to drive my leds at work and at home is a switch mode power supply. the way it regulates its output is via pulse width modulation so the power supply gives out very little heat.
again no offence
here is the desri p tion of the I.C. that is used in my power supplies:
The MAX724/MAX726 are monolithic, bipolar, pulsewidth
modulation (PWM), switch-mode DC-DC regulators
optimized for step-down applications. The
MAX724 is rated at 5A, and the MAX726 at 2A. Few
external components are needed for standard operation
because the power switch, oscillator, and control
circuitry are all on-chip. Employing a classic buck
topology, these regulators perform high-current stepdown
functions, but can also be configured as inverters,
negative boost converters, or flyback converters.
These regulators have excellent dynamic and transient
response characteristics, while featuring cycle-by-cycle
current limiting to protect against overcurrent faults and
short-circuit output faults. The MAX724/MAX726 also
have a wide 8V to 40V input range in the buck stepdown
configuration. In inverting and boost configurations,
the input can be as low as 5V.
The MAX724/MAX726 are available in a 5-pin TO-220
package. The devices have a preset 100kHz oscillator
frequency and a preset current limit of 6.5A (MAX724)
or 2.6A (MAX726).
And here is the link that has a basic power supply and the data sheet
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/73748/MAXIM/MAX724CCK.html (http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/73748/MAXIM/MAX724CCK.html)
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Well, I have worked something out, !@# !@# !@# !@#
IF WE CAN GET BEAKY AND FIREPOWER ON ONE OF THOSE TV SHOWS AND SAY
"YOU HAVE 4 HRS TO MAKE AN ELECTRICAL SOMETHING, AND HERE ARE A LIMITED SET OF PARTS, AND SOME BASIC TOOLS, GO FOR IT, TIME STARTS NOW, WORK TOGETHER"
I am sure you two electronic bloody wizards would probably end up making a friggin satellite that cooks toast and flashes plus a whole extra whack of excellent stuff cause you blokes have lost me with technical nobel prize Einstein stuff.
But at least we know you guys are very cluey indeed. If i ever get ship wrecked, I want you two to build me the radio so we can get saved (only if the local native women arent worth staying for) && && && &&
Back on topic, lets see more photos of pinballs with LED's please anyone.
^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^
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may as well put a pic up of my homemades:
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/Gwind/diyleds002.jpg?t=1271755045)
I didnt take photos, but I was able to squeeze 2 LEDs into a socket like that. They work absolutely fine, have for 6 months so far. You cant see it, but a resistor is in there.
what happend to the photo you had up before?
any way that led in the my picture would be more suited to use in a flasher. the manufacture specify that you run it at 50ma
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may as well put a pic up of my homemades:
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e260/Gwind/diyleds002.jpg?t=1271755045)
I didnt take photos, but I was able to squeeze 2 LEDs into a socket like that. They work absolutely fine, have for 6 months so far. You cant see it, but a resistor is in there.
what happend to the photo you had up before?
any way that led in the my picture would be more suited to use in a flasher. the manufacture specify that you run it at 50ma
What photo Beaky? Did I ever post version 1 of my homemades? That one wont be posted again lol
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My T2 fully LED'ed. Blue frosted GI under return lanes and red under the slings.
came up a treat - way better than new. In the dark its a light show!
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so it seems frosted LED's for GI are the best ? looks bloody nice shootar, bloody nice indeed. ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^
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For anybody other than Beaky and I who is reading this thread, I'd say just buy some Cointaker or Ablaze leds, pay attention to colour, polarity and stick 'em in - then enjoy fiddling, moving them around and playing with your toy which is why we're all here. Then have a beer to celebrate.
For Beaky and anybody else who is still following or even remotely interested in the to and fro of the techno bable and willie waving that we're both engaged in I think we've just about reached the point where we can't add any further and will just have to agree to disagree. I'll have one more attempt and await your response telling me where and why I'm wrong. I take it all in good humour, feel and trust you do too, and the only thing that is offended is my sense of good elegant circuit design!
I reckon you'd benefit from looking around and reading up on current design trends, ideas and thinking. This application note on driving leds put out by Texas Instruments puts it pretty well. http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slyt084/slyt084.pdf Have a quick read of the section headed "Direct Control of Current" for a good summary of why not to use voltage control and why to use current control.
The reason people have had to use the leds with resistors to stick them in pins is much like your argument that you continued to wire in parallel because of a legacy machine. Basically it's a cheap, inefficient cludge, but that doesn't mean it's good practice and certainly wouldn't be the way to go if starting with a fresh sheet of paper, either for a pin or a commercial lighting product.
Some of the arguments you've put up are either the same as what I'm saying or support those ideas, some of them you selectively and arguably wrongly interpret. A classic being your point that the Vf across leds will be different, this is precisely why you want to put them in series and regulate current.
The 724 data sheet that you quote is largely irrelevant - it's just a dc to dc regulator. A poor old design doesn't become a good design just through passage of time or number of units made. It's a case of using not the best technique or approach for the application - nowhere does the 724 data sheet mention its' use or suitability for regulating leds - that's 'cause it's not that suitable. All it does is get you a voltage that works with the combo you have, the resistor is doing the real job. Take a look at the Maxim MAX1698 chip, specifically designed for driving leds. Notice that they talk about current regulation of multiple parallel strings of series leds and describe a trivially simple and standard method of protection for the (unlikely) event of a led failing open circuit. Notice how easy it is to regulate intensity over a very wide turn down ratio. This would be an ideal candidate (simple, efficient, handles up to 5W) for the application that brought me into this discussion; namely driving, with good variable control, GI leds.
Between 2005 and now there have been enormous leaps forward in led technology and an explosion in efficient led use and it's likely these specific chips weren't around in the period 2000 to 2005 (current regulated designs were then and they remain now the most appropriate way to control led brightness) - luckily the chips are here, available now, simplifying things a bit.
For a really nice off the shelf, just install solution have a look at the LumiLeds buckpuck controllers.
Anyway, enough from me, thanks for the good humoured discussion and I'm happy to let you try swim against the tide, eventually you'll end up down river. I intend this to be my last post in this thread unless you come up with something really good, exceptionally bad or stunningly controversial. All the best, hope you leds burn long and bright, I am now going out the back to bury the soldering iron. Cheers, Firepower.
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I have been looking at various videos on youtube, in videos u can see the big difference with LED's, in a photo, u cant see much at all.
I have decided to take the plunge and just order some and see what i can come up with. ^^^
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I would agree in theory that when designing a new sealed led light that this would be the way to go,(i would have to run many tests before doing a run of circuit boards with this type of circuit) but as far as running leds on a string or in a pinball machine i will stick to the method i have used for years.
The reason why i stick to this in a pinball is because it is not practical to re wire every lighting circuit in a pin.
The reason why i stick to this with leds on a string is because in every application that was bought off the company i worked for the customer would order x meters of led string lighting and cut it to the lengths that were required and connect it to a power supply. in most applications they would not even use all the leds. so if the leds where wired in series there would be a great chance that the leds would be cut half way through one of the series.
there are other problems you run into when running long lengths of cable with leds in commercial applications which you only learn through many tests.
any way i have had fun with this discussion fire power ^^^
I will finish my last post on this thread regarding using current regulation for leds. How many of you seen led traffic lights with large ammounts of the leds out? I have seen many of them, the power supply on these led fittings are current regulated. &&
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I did my Harley Davidson replacing GIs and some other general playfield globes and I know people take pics etc of before/after but you really have to see the results in person for yourself, it really transforms a machine. But like everything we all have different tastes, but if you get an opportunity to see one that has been modified, even partially you will be impressed.
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I cant have LEDs close to the flippers ie slingshots and return lanes, the flicker distracts me, and makes it harder to time shots.
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I cant have LEDs close to the flippers ie slingshots and return lanes, the flicker distracts me, and makes it harder to time shots.
What led's did you have in the slings and returns Greg . I have the frosted type and don't get any flickering .
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I cant have LEDs close to the flippers ie slingshots and return lanes, the flicker distracts me, and makes it harder to time shots.
What led's did you have in the slings and returns Greg . I have the frosted type and don't get any flickering .
Not sure if I tried frosted in there Scott, may have to get some and try.