PC Based Pinball Discussion

[Homepin]

I don't understand why the issue with this Mr Homepin? At the end of the day it is all electronic in some way, isn't it?
Can you relate to me why you are so against this format and that IF it is, it will be a disaster.
I want to understand your reasoning
Cheers  

PC's are the most unreliable electronic device around. They are not used in industrial controllers for very good reasons.

Look at Pin2000 - the PC based hardware is now causing all sorts of problems because it goes obsolete minutes after a new motherboard is released. Pin2000 owners did recently have a choice of throwing away the very obsolete PC and replacing it with a modern twist on the same thing (a newer version of the PC). Those that have done this will be back in the same boat in a few years IMO and for the same reasons.

A traditional electronic pinball is run by an "embedded controller" - a purpose built computer that has only one mission and does not deviate from this.

Stern knows this only too well - they are far from stupid and have NOT gone anywhere near PC's.

Industrial controllers are also run by "embedded controllers" purely for reliability and less chance of going obsolete in the next five minutes. I dread the thought of a large industrial plant going haywire because the PC crashed or ran amuck. Once enbedded software is written and de-bugged this almost never happens.

I'm afraid anyone using PC's to make pinballs (on a commercial basis) are in for a very bad shock.....and that includes JJP if that is what they are using....I haven't actually seen where they clarify what exactly will control their machines.....

[Caveoftreasures]

+1   definately makes sense Mike. 

Why did JJP think this was the way to go (and others). Is it a cheaper/quicker way to get to market ? with "worry about the longevity hassles later" style thinking. ? 

Good to see someone finally say Strern arent stupid.lol   Gary has kept it simple which seems to have worked for a very long time...why are people changing to PC based systems ?? 

[Retropin]

+1   definately makes sense Mike. 

Why did JJP think this was the way to go (and others). Is it a cheaper/quicker way to get to market ? with "worry about the longevity hassles later" style thinking. ? 

Good to see someone finally say Strern arent stupid.lol   Gary has kept it simple which seems to have worked for a very long time...why are people changing to PC based systems ?? 

You need to read it again mate..

I'm afraid anyone using PC's to make pinballs (on a commercial basis) are in for a very bad shock.....and that includes JJP if that is what they are using....I haven't actually seen where they clarify what exactly will control their machines.....

[ajlaird]

For a home-brew project it is a lot easier to use a PC as the controller than to have to design a dedicated controller. That's why people do it. But commercially we are talking the potential for a machine to last a number of years, more than a lot of PCs last. And the trouble with using a PC is that a few years later if something breaks it is likely you will have to replace the whole PC unit as parts are generally not readily available. Or something like that.

[Caveoftreasures]

+1   definately makes sense Mike.  

Why did JJP think this was the way to go (and others). Is it a cheaper/quicker way to get to market ? with "worry about the longevity hassles later" style thinking. ?  

Good to see someone finally say Strern arent stupid.lol   Gary has kept it simple which seems to have worked for a very long time...why are people changing to PC based systems ??  

You need to read it again mate..

I'm afraid anyone using PC's to make pinballs (on a commercial basis) are in for a very bad shock.....and that includes JJP if that is what they are using....I haven't actually seen where they clarify what exactly will control their machines.....

Gav, I totally understood.

JJP are using a PC from what i understand. Remember that 20 page review that showed the motherboard and the graphics card in the metal box etc.
So JJP are using a PC based system if I interpreted those photos and information from that review correctly. That may mean that they are not following suit with a Stern based style system but doing their own PC style operating system for WOZ etc.
Which means JJP's pinball MAY end up having hassles like Mike said if they use the PC system.

It was in Pinball News

http://www.pinballnews.com/games/wizardofoz/index34.html

Inside the metal box we find the PC board, the driver board, the amplifier board and a power supply.

The motherboard used here is a passively-cooled Intel mini-ITX one, with an Atom D2700 CPU. Because the game runs on Linux, it is not tied to this particular type or brand of motherboard or CPU, making it much more future-proof than Pinball 2000 was.  

The motherboard connects to a solid-state drive which contains the operating system, the game code and all the assets.


Is this a PC ? Is this prone to the probs Mike was suggesting ? Is Heighway Pinball going to use a similar PC setup ?
Isnt Stern staying away from this technology, and havent they been using the system Mike said was much better ?

Mike or Gavs opinion here would be good, or both.

Brett

[Homepin]

Inside the metal box we find the PC board, the driver board, the amplifier board and a power supply.

The motherboard used here is a passively-cooled Intel mini-ITX one, with an Atom D2700 CPU. Because the game runs on Linux, it is not tied to this particular type or brand of motherboard or CPU, making it much more future-proof than Pinball 2000 was. 

The motherboard connects to a solid-state drive which contains the operating system, the game code and all the assets.

There is some confusion here - the first line says "PC Board" - this measn "Printed Circuit Board" and that is fine. Further on it says "Motherboard" - this means "PC Motherboard" and that translates to "Personal Computer Motherboard" and I don't care what they say about the machine "Not being tied to a motherboard or CPU (Central Procesing Unit) like Pin2000 was" - this is the disaster part for any and every owner and that is pure SPIN!

DUMB DUMB DUMB and DUMBER!!!

Ajlaird has nailed it in one - PCs (Personal Computer Motherboards) go out of fashion several times a year and they only last a few years at best. The Motherboards in any machine using them will need replacing BUT, and here is the problem, in a few years there WILL NOT be a drop in replacement. the RAM will be different, the power supply will be diifferent, the processor will be different.

Stern is sticking with an embedded system (so far anyway) where an industry standard embedded controller chip runs a dedicated program (upgradeable yes, but dedicated never the less) and this has proved, in the pinball industry alone over 30 years, to be VERY reliable.

A close firend of mine in Brisbane operates digital jukeboxes in pubs and has done for many years. He is at his wits end with them (a run of about 40 machines). They are forever 'blue screen of deathing' - have dying motherboards etc etc - all the problems you get with an old PC. They have cost him money for years now and he is on the edge of pulling them all off site and throwing them away.

I repeat - if JJP is using a Personal Computer Motherboard the buyers will be VERY cheesed off in a few years time....this is NOT a suitable electronics system to run an item that has a lifespan of 20 years or more (IMO).

[Caveoftreasures]

Thanks Mike.

Hopefully when the WOZ machines land, (or the Full Throttle model pinny) you will be able to have a closer look and also check out the User manual/Schematics via the hard copy user manual or even online and provide further insight for both the JJP and Heighway models.

The only way they might be able to get past this, is if they produce a very large/decent amount of replacement backup components/boards, so u can easily just take out the buggered one and replace it with the identical brand new replacement. That will work i guess.

Lets see what happens when the Heighway Pinballs hit the sales floors, and the JJP model too.

Maybe, its a good question to ask Heighway Pinball when he is online here next. They must have a contingency plan ? 

[Homepin]

Let me just add a clarifying remark....

Why is it that EVERY (and I mean EVERY) - TV set, Air conditioner, DVD player, Digital camera, Motor car, Motor cycle, Microwave oven, desktop printer, ANY (and all) remote control handsets, Traffic lights, Commercial two way radios & the list goes on with pretty well anything that is controlled by an electronic 'brain' - in EVERY case these devices are ALL controlled by embedded processors NOT (repeat) NOT a Personal Computer (PC).

Ask yourself why that is................

[oldskool1969]

Let me just add a clarifying remark....

Why is it that EVERY (and I mean EVERY) - TV set, Air conditioner, DVD player, Digital camera, Motor car, Motor cycle, Microwave oven, desktop printer, ANY (and all) remote control handsets, Traffic lights, Commercial two way radios & the list goes on with pretty well anything that is controlled by an electronic 'brain' - in EVERY case these devices are ALL controlled by embedded processors NOT (repeat) NOT a Personal Computer (PC).

Ask yourself why that is................

You make a very valid point and I now understand what you meant, cheers.
I also wish we knew what the controller was going to be. But am not concerned as it is meant to be a fun money maker first and for most. Exactly like the pinball machines we play around with, restore and collect to this date. Spending heaps of $ repairing, modding and making pretty again. These weren't meant to last, were they?
Just like most things in life if it is OLD we want to make NEW again. Everything goes full circle.
Technology changes and hopefully for the better ,more reliability comes into play also thus making life better.  WE HOPE!

[Marty Machine]

Nothing wrong with PC boards, it's the damn shitty op-systems that crash them out.....obviously keep away from windows, but most high-end industrial gear is using a linux kernal these days which is rock solid, and the other 1/2 go exclusively embedded....
However, nowadays they're a hybrid of embedded & linux running the show, but the boards themselves are FINE.

A motherboard can die (electronically) just as easily as an embedded board, and i've seen some shocker embedded RETAIL boards that just shouldn't be marketed to industrial markets, and yet they still get installed....

[beaky]

IMO anything P.C. based has a use by date.
I am seeing this time and time again with the p2000 system
Backwards compatibility always has a use by date. Unless any company can "guarantee" they will be around when technology will dump the current day standard and they will make non cost efficient backwards compatible hardware and charge you the earth for it because unless they do this it is not viable then their PC based system will in our life time die and not have an off the shelf replacement.

ATM anything USB is safe until the standard on P.C's are changed.
do you really think that in 10 or 20 years P.C's will actually have "any" port or socket other than the 240v or power pack socket (if they even have that) ?
sockets / connectors cost money so companies will phase them out and only support wireless or blue tooth until blue tooth becomes too slow and another style of wireless interconnection will become the standard.

Beaky  





  

[Homepin]

Linux is FAR from stable - certainly much better than other operating systems but still nowhere near approaching the rock solid behaviour of an embedded software system.

I have lost count of the number of advertising signs I have personally seen that are PC (Personal Computer) based and have either locked up or are in constant re-boot mode in public places and running Linux.

Twice now (in the last year) I have been on the Cathay flight - Cairns>Hong Kong on an Airbus 340 and the entertainment system has been down and required numerous re-boots (Linux).

Maybe all of these things are Personal Computer related problems, maybe they are Linux related - I don't know BUT what I DO KNOW is that you simply NEVER see this with embedded systems, they simply do not crash.

I'm not going to harp on about it any longer because I have pretty strong views about it - I will sit back and watch the explosions!!!

[ajlaird]

The other problem you have with PCs is that potentially you can have a batch of components which break down faster than normal. I have lost track of the number of computer motherboards that died pretty early on in their life due to poor quality electrolytic capacitors. These caps physically failed under heat and opened up, releasing electrolyte. Now, if you were desperate, you could remove and replace all the caps, but otherwise you just bought a new computer. The problem was not limited to one brand of motherboard, either.

Not saying this will happen again, but you are probably more vulnerable to this type of issue if you use a PC as a controller.

[Marty Machine]

i hear ya, but embedded components die all too often as well, with no return to life once they 'fuse-out' internally, at least linux can be restarted... ;-)
While Linux can have it's quirks (but far more stable than windows) it's often a mismatched hardware issue from cheap distributors who don't know any better.
I use the term Linux to mean a customised kernel for the task, not the regular linux you download off the net, which is what some manufactures will still do.

Embedded controllers, CPLD's/FPGA's are being churned out just as much (and just as cheaply) as mainstream motherboard components, in fact the chips today aren't as robust as they were just 10-20 years ago, that's chinese short-cutting for you!


anyhoo enough rants.

Go make a system out of bamboo & coconut shells and let us know how you get on  ;-)

[Caveoftreasures]

does anyone have an answer as to why all these new pinball companies havent stuck with the same system Stern is using...is it because the Stern system cant run large LCD screens, or will that be a easy add on to the Stern system to have a LCD working with it.

Sterns system seems to work really well, doesnt take up much space at all, and there is bugger all to it, so why havent the others gone this route instead of PC based ideas/systems.

Seems to be efficient n cheap to build/use, so why not copy Sterns way ? I wouldnt mind hearing why people think these new companies havent done what Stern has done ?? what is the advantage oof staying Sterns way, what is the advantage of going the PC way, cause so far, we are hearing no benefit by going PC based, except maybe its easier to put together from shelf parts ??

anyone have an idea why they are not sticking with a tried n tru method ??