Author Topic: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters  (Read 40890 times)

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Offline pinnies4me

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2015, 12:18:57 AM »
I can't purchase a second KISS LE playfield at this point in time as Stern allocate a percentage of playfields for warranty claims.



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Offline skywalker

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2015, 09:02:26 AM »
This is a ST pro with PF issues that must of slipped through the cracks somewhere along the production line, In the end PF is getting replaced under Warranty,

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/beat-up-st-wow#post-2526824


Offline Strangeways

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2015, 09:16:46 AM »
This is a ST pro with PF issues that must of slipped through the cracks somewhere along the production line, In the end PF is getting replaced under Warranty,

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/beat-up-st-wow#post-2526824



It was passed through QA. Clearcoat is not the issue - as it appears to not have one. QA is the problem. This kind of publicity only causes harm - should never have happened.
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Offline swinks

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2015, 01:23:03 PM »
yeah that one was a shocker
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Offline andypinboy

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2015, 04:18:49 PM »
 $$(  Glad it was replaced.
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Offline skywalker

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2015, 08:04:48 PM »
yeah that one was a shocker

Yes mate a shocker, hopefully some good will come out of it.

Offline swinks

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #111 on: June 27, 2015, 07:45:44 PM »
here is a shot of the LE playfield showing the 7 layers and that top layer is very thin and probably of the quality ply which shouldn't make a difference but I think the next layer down is probably the critical one either being soft or medium or hard - hard being the desired.
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Offline robm

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #112 on: July 03, 2015, 09:04:05 PM »
OK, here is some more evidence i believe the factory process has some serious issues on quality control.

My recently acquired Hulk LE (which i am loving) is pretty nasty in terms of dimples









I think it probably equals or rivals the Walking Dead in previous posts

I am not against Stern machines, in fact i have more Sterns in my current collection than other brands, and love playing them.  Just had a good look over LOTR, and it is perfect. However, it is a serious issue i reckon Stern needs to address - as it is not on every machine - therefore it must be a process issue in the factory

I would welcome any feedback from Stern on how this issue could be addressed as it is pretty ordinary for a recent machine, or due to the extreme nature of the dimpling on my playfield, whether it be considered a factory defect?

Offline pinball god

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #113 on: July 03, 2015, 09:14:44 PM »
Not nice
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Offline Retropin

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #114 on: July 03, 2015, 09:24:35 PM »
That's bizarre.. looks pretty deep.

Offline Freiherr

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #115 on: July 03, 2015, 11:57:22 PM »
That Hulk LE playfield is a shocker!
Just had another good look at mine and it only has a few minute dimples.
Must be random cases???
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Offline Strangeways

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2015, 12:32:13 PM »
Had the crew from HRP down during the week and we spent some time looking at the dimpling issue. The immediate reaction was that "it is not right". As with all restorer's that have seen TWD LE - None of us could put our name on such a poor clearcoat. We agree that the playfield would have to be re cleared if either HRP or APR was responsible for such a bad job.

At this point, we tried a couple of tests, and one really took us by surprise. As mentioned earlier in this thread, to create a dimple on a clearcoat is s simple as rolling a ball off the flipper bat. Drop the ball from a height of two or three flipper bats (the height of a ramp), and you have a crater. The idea was to rule out the wood. So we reverse the playfield and exposed the underside of the playfield. We picked a spot and attempted to create a dimple. Didn't happen. We could not create a dimple. The wood was too strong. The only way to create a dimple was to almost "throw" the ball on the underside on the playfield.

From this simple test - we ruled out the wood. The only possible exception - One side of the timber is "pressed" to be harder - like the topmost ply is more compressed than the underside. THEN - The timber is "flipper" and the art is screened to the wrong side. This is a possible theory. There is no doubt that one side of this playfield appears to be harder. This is the ONLY reason to point to the wood being "too soft".

Back to the topside - This title has a very busy and colorful playfield. The possibility that because there are so many colours and "screenprinting" passes, that the playfield simply has too much colour layers. This would make the paint soft. So if the playfield wood is rock hard, then the paint layers allow dimpling. But this can be protected by a reasonable clearcoat.

Enough experts that apply clearcoats to playfields arrive at the same conclusion. The clearcoat is too thin, uneven in patches and is "too soft". It appears that the factory clearcoat material is of a very poor standard and not applied correctly. Again, a simple test on a freshly clearcoated playfield proves this is the case. A ST TNG with a professional clearcoat was used as a test. The only way to create the smaller dimples was to drop the ball from the height of three flipper bats. Then four flipper bats then five. We now have three visible tiny dimples than can only been seen while holding the playfield up to the light. We placed the playfield aside for 30 minutes. We reviewed the playfield and looked as hard as we could and only found 1 dimple that was slightly visible. The others had "self healed". These playfields will dimple over time, but never as badly as what we see on some Stern playfields.

It seems the dimpling issues can easily be addressed by Stern in the factory. No one should be accepting the "just play the damn thing and it will all blend in". That might have applied to the 5% of home users. But that 5% is now 20%. Next year 50%, the year after 80%. Imagine buying a $500,000 Ferrari and finding out that the auto body clear was thin and of poor quality. You go back to the dealership and you are told "keep driving down dirt roads - it will all blend in and level out".. I guess that's the first and last Ferrari that owner will buy.

The theory is that an extra $50 of material - or a better clearcoat product + one or two more passes under the gun - and extra 5 minutes on the line - could remedy this situation - or at least prevent NIB $11,000 machines from having moonscapes. That's the bottom line.

We invite Stern to send us two playfields and we can provide a better solution ;

1 - Factory cleared playfield. We will test the dimpling and then re clear using a superior product that is used on all HRP and APR restorations. Then run the same tests.
1 - Factory uncleared playfield. We will clear using a superior product and then run the same tests.

Now moving forward - if Stern believe this is all just a whinging pinhead with an axe to grind, I'd like to point out the following - I've spoken to TWO pinball manufacturers who are going to be using the same clearcoat approach as professional restorers. Clearly, this is now the acceptable standard.

Without a doubt, dimpling is part of EVERY game with a ball flaying around off ramps etc etc.. Steel ball VS wood = Steel ball wins. We all know that. We need to find a way to minimize this effect on $10,000 pinball machines. If it was done 20 years ago, it should be able to be achieved in 2015.
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Offline Retropin

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2015, 03:28:31 PM »
The artwork isn't screen printed... its digitally printed on a white background. You can tell this by looking at the shading. A digital print will make many pass overs and place small dots where colour is needed. Go to a shade out and the dots become less. The eye then blends these in so long as it is from a distance. Most machines don't print white.. they are CMYK and print OVER a flat white sheet.

You can clearly see this on the highlighted area and also how the print head passed horizontally over the white substrate.




So.. this then begs another question... is it printed direct to the timber...or... is it printed to a vinyl and then applied?

If to a vinyl, then it may be the vinyl substrate that is getting dented... if direct to timber, then it must be the timber.
The CC is quite thin and the dimples look to go beyond the depth of that.

Anyone with a Stern able to take a pic of the PF edge?... If you see a thin white line at the very top where the artwork is then you may well have yourself a digital print to vinyl that is applied as the artwork.

Offline MartyJ

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2015, 07:02:54 PM »
These are a couple of quick (rough) snaps taken of my MetPro playfield.






Offline andypinboy

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Re: Stern Thincoat - Dimples & Craters
« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2015, 08:43:27 PM »
Nino, I think there's no doubt whatsoever the TWD clear is "too soft". It could be an incorrect mix - if this happens in a sense it never really "cures". Was just wondering if there is a way to measure the thickness of the clear scientifically (it is done on cars to check for panel work - but I assume this requires a metal rather than wood base).
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