A & B Title DMD games

[swinks]

I am just wondering what determines a try A title and B title,

is it ranking, sales ?????

what are your thoughts on this one.

[Pintoxicated]

I would say that it is more based on reputation that actual sales.  The reputation then has a flow on effect to price and also availability.  Guys that think they have a title with a good reputation will typically be less likely to sell them which in turn makes them harder to find which in turn makes them more desirable when one finally does come up.  It turns into a vicious cycle. 

Take WH2O for example.  It wasn't that long ago that this machine was a definite B title and there were always machines popping up for sale.  Now their reputation is on the up and up as being an underrated machine, they come up less often and when they do, they are demanding higher prices.

[Caveoftreasures]

These rankings USED to be more relevant 5 or more years ago when Australia didnt recieve 100 containers of pinball machines into our shores, because some titles like some of the Ballys/late 90's B/W were very hard to get n play cause most people in the USA and private collectors in Europe wouldnt part with them. Then along came more n more Euro container imports n the whole game changed.

(Rankings on IPDB change every month, sales numbers also become superceeded every month or two also with new titles coming out.)
Now that every man n his dog has imported dozens upon dozens of every title known to man, and prices have dropped, the so called A and B titles arent so hard to come by, so the lines of what is a A title and a B title have become very murky. I have played alot of the old B/W so called A listers, and find the current crop opf Sterns to be far better machines...thats my taste, but the next bloke will like the older machines more. There is no right or wrong answer.I love my Segas n my Data easts. All great machines.

These days, I believe whatever you like to play and collect the most is your own A and B title. Its no longer just Ballys. Alot of Sterns now are peoples A and B titles. Even older stuff like High Speed 2, Creature, have become more n more collectable. The A and B titles that other people say are the so called A and B titles might be theirs, but they are different to each n every collector.

Personally, my A and B titles change every month, because my taste changes every month. Probably the same for alot of collectors.

[pinsanity]

Since every man and his dog started importing containers into Australia the rankings of A, B list etc are more relevant than ever. Why? Because for every 1 MM,AFM,CV,TOTAN or MB brought into the country there are 3 Getaways, 4 Fish tales et al, and a boatload of Segas and Data Easts in the same container that the importer was FORCED to accept as part of the conditions of getting their hands on one of the A titles mentioned. It cannot be more obvious why the "resellers" in Europe have this restriction - everyone wants the A list and no one wants to import a container load solely consisting of what is generally regarded as "lesser titles". This for them is the easiest way to get the rid of the unwanted warehouse filler stock.

If you regard price/value as part of the definition of a title's rankings, then MM has gone up in value for every year after its release in 1997, and has never been out of the top 3 in ranking in 15 years. Despite there being 4,016 of them as a standard model pin (more than all the Stern LE versions combined), they are now selling for $20,000+ for a restored to factory standard version in the US (which I personally find ludicrous). Once MM went to this price, its "little sister" AFM quickly followed suit and broke the $10,000 mark. These are not coincidences, this is a free market that recognises quality and is willing to pay for it (A list title or not).

[Caveoftreasures]

A mate of mine imported 8 x Medi Evil Madness pins from Japan not 6 months ago,(amongst alot of other A priced titles) all the MM's were in excellent condition, and he sold the lot for 7500 and 8500 as is, and still doubled his money.....the euro sellers dont mind giving u a container of A listers, provided u pay for them, but most people who buy the containers full of junk dont know what they are doing.

My mate has brought in apx 6 containers, and 90 percent of the stock has always been A and B titles with little else...he just paid the euro exporter an extra $500 a title compared to what the novice backyarders were offering...he has always made a mint on his containers.

those prices in the USA for those titles are just silly....I played a AFM and I fell asleep...I preferred the RFM at a third of the price, but each to their own....it wont be long and all the USA people will be calling down under to find a pinny.lol  I guess what it gets down to, is do u list your own stuff based on playability, or cost to rank it A and B.....??  To me, pins are to be played and enjoyed, not ranked like they are an investment piece which rarely works out....

[elkor-alish]

A titles are "Awesome", they're the ones that are the most fun to play and have the deeper rule sets.
B titles are "Boring".

A title. Keeps you coming back as you are always finding new things and challenges in the game.
B title. Fun at first but you find that you are doing the same thing over and over again, nothing new to see and do.

However it really is in the eye of the beholder.
Just today I spoke to a guy who told me how much he loved Last Action Hero and would never part with it.
I couldn't see it myself, I've played the game but it doesn't really do anything for me.
I had a friend come over (not a pin head like most of my mates) and we had a few games.
He says
"Which game are you the best at?"
I say
"Getaway!"
I explain the rules to him whilst playing and he says
"Is that it!"
It's not a deep game but it is a lot of fun.

Everyone tells me Medieval Madness is one of the greatest game ever.  Yeah....... I don't think so.
One of the most over rated and over priced games out there.
It's a good game, just not that good.

[Caveoftreasures]

my brothers favourite game is Popeye cause he was stoned once and played it for 3 hours non stop. 

I tried telling him he had hit the start button 4 times and he was really playing 4 games at once but til this day he says he had a multiball going for 2 hours plus.

Its a A title to him 

[ajlaird]

A list titles are those generally considered the best all-round pinball machines in terms of ranking (game-play, graphics, sound, artwork and anything else I haven't thought of) and consequently are usually high-priced as well. There is always some debate about which titles should be included in this list. Some people would rank A list titles simply on price as a measure of "collectability".

B list titles are very good titles but are considered not quite up to the standard of the A list titles.

In other words, it is the general opinion of the pinball community which determines a title's status. Some people choose to disagree with this general opinion.

[Strangeways]

Since every man and his dog started importing containers into Australia the rankings of A, B list etc are more relevant than ever. Why? Because for every 1 MM,AFM,CV,TOTAN or MB brought into the country there are 3 Getaways, 4 Fish tales et al, and a boatload of Segas and Data Easts in the same container that the importer was FORCED to accept as part of the conditions of getting their hands on one of the A titles mentioned. It cannot be more obvious why the "resellers" in Europe have this restriction - everyone wants the A list and no one wants to import a container load solely consisting of what is generally regarded as "lesser titles". This for them is the easiest way to get the rid of the unwanted warehouse filler stock.

If you regard price/value as part of the definition of a title's rankings, then MM has gone up in value for every year after its release in 1997, and has never been out of the top 3 in ranking in 15 years. Despite there being 4,016 of them as a standard model pin (more than all the Stern LE versions combined), they are now selling for $20,000+ for a restored to factory standard version in the US (which I personally find ludicrous). Once MM went to this price, its "little sister" AFM quickly followed suit and broke the $10,000 mark. These are not coincidences, this is a free market that recognises quality and is willing to pay for it (A list title or not).

+1

I think that the "A", "B", "C" pins are a combination of personal opinion, number produced and playability.

Cactus Canyon is a classic example. Low production number - so it is a rarer title. Lame player (my opinion), and an incredibly boring title (my opinion). Yes it commands a $10,000 price tag. Definitely NOT a "A" list for me, but I'm sure I have offended at least one CC owner who would read this.

Cirqus Voltaire is another. There used to be PLENTY of these imported. Always a sleeper title. The best playing DMD of all time and the best artwork (my opinion). An "A" list pin in every respect.

Scared Stiff - High production number. A definite "A" list pinball for me - and it was cheaper 3-4 years ago. Everything about this machine is "A" list.

But there is always a PRICE point that should be included when calculating "A" list games. Given I don't rate CC or MM as great players, they are overpriced, which in my view, drops their value (in terms of their rating). Fishtales is reasonable player, for 25% of the cost. "A" grade games must reflect the price. I don't mean that overpriced games should be "A" listers - quite the opposite. If CC and Fishtales were offered to me FREE on the condition I cannot resell - I'd pick Fishtales. Better player. I would play it every day. CC would not be played. So one pin is underrated and one overrated.

Using this logic, CC is a "C" grade pinball. Overpriced, poor player and generally a game I would never play. Fishtales would be a "B+", because it is cheap, a great player and a game I'd play every day.

The Cookie Cutter "A" grade Collection would be - MM, MB, CC, AFM.
The Cookie Cutter "B" grade Collection would be - TOTAN, TZ, T2, TAF, CV, SS.
The Cookie Cutter "C" grade Collection would be - JD, DM, Dr Who, FT.

My opinion, using my logic, and keeping in mind pricing VS playability has a lot to do with my rankings ;

"A" grade Collection would be - SS, CV, AFM, TAF.
"B" grade Collection would be - TOTAN, TZ, T2, FT, MB.
"C" grade Collection would be - JD, DM, Dr Who, CC

I don't expect anyone to agree with my reasoning, as I have pins in my collection that I like - not what other would deem "collectible". It is all about opinion, and the only criticism I have, and the reason I don't like CC, is that it is a $2500 pinball. That's the way I see it.

[swinks]

thanks for the thoughts     , helps understand it a little but boils down to over ranking.

I think I will stick to machines that are fun to play, bit of a challenge and not to expensive to buy or just what I am willing to spend.

[pinball god]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is meant by a "cookie cutter" collector. I pretty good at desiphering meanings but it is Friday Arvo now

[Retropin]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is meant by a "cookie cutter" collector. I pretty good at desiphering meanings but it is Friday Arvo now

Highly desirable titles... to some, pinball is all about having cookie cutters... some have the odd one... many have none and couldnt care.

Its almost possible to judge a man by his collection i believe

[pinnies4me]

Just thinking about one A Lister - AFM. Nine years ago there were maybe 20 in the country and I got one based on having been playing one at a local venue. It wasn't an A lister then - few had heard of it. In fact, many who had  were critical of it lacking enough toys.

Nowadays, aside from some few critics (many of which would be genuine in their belief, others would be less so) it is a confirmed a lister, rapidly approaching the lofty mm heights.

Another game I like is wh2o. A few years ago a firm b lister, today seemingly on the A list.

Seems it takes time for games to be rediscovered. My personal opinion is due to the questionable stern titles (more misses than hits) collectors are looking to the DMD classics from b/w of the nineties, and up go the rankings of games previously overlooked.

What's next? Congo on the A list?  

[Pop Bumper Pete]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is meant by a "cookie cutter" collector. I pretty good at desiphering meanings but it is Friday Arvo now

some one who only wants games from a 'Top 20' list , and usually wants them in perfect condition

Such a collector never plays his games

Did hear of one guy that insisted players wear gloves when playing his machines

[Caveoftreasures]

The problem with the so called A lister titles, is that they look great (nicest artwork) but they play boring as hell....there seems to be this mythical belief that if you pay 8 or 10 grand for a pinny it must be the best, its so untrue. Many many games that are 2 or 3 grand play better.

I am glad someone mentioned Congo.  Not many people have played this game at all. It has a underplayfield (like AC/DC LE has got) and Congo is a great player. Its a WPC 95 1995 model from Williams. Its a rated 7.8 if u listen to IPDB ratings. AFM is 8.2.  So very close. Same WPC 95.

You can pick up a really minty Congo for around $2500. I would put my Congo up against a AFM any day of the week in a players secret ballot with the machines side by side in a players competition, and I reckon people would vote for Congo being deeper and more fun than AFM. Congo wasnt a huge hit at the box office, so peoples ears dont prick up when u mention Congo.
Sure, most would expect AFM to be the so called winner, just on reputation alone, but its not til u play all the differenbt Dmd machines that u realise games like the cookie cutters are so over-rated its embarrassing.

How many times do u hear someone has saved up for one of these cookie cutters, only to play it for 2 or 3 months, then sell it out of boredom.
My advice to anyone is, play the games before u buy on reputation alone, cause if u dont, u may regret buying a game which costs sooo much, but plays no where near what its reputation suggests.